Difference between grades of chain
- Thread startermjw56
- Start date
Just a couple of notes:
Maillon Rapide is a French company who makes the world's only legitimate rated quick links. I just noticed that my sand bag rigging system uses Chinese made 500lb "rated" quick links. Have to do something about that soon. (Van they were installed by your old buddies by the way.)
As for your comment about buying good American made shackles at the local hardware store I'm skeptical. There are VERY few corner hardware stores that stock GOOD rigging hardware (Home Depot and Lowes sure don't stock it). You typically need to go through some sort of specialty dealer located in the industrial part of town or find a Grainger (they carry C.M.). Beyond that your best bet is your local theater dealer or purchasing from one of the national theater rigging companies (call and ask for help). There are a few exceptions but generally, if it isn't made by Columbus McKinnon or Crosby don't buy it.
It sounds like you could really use a rigging inspection. It'll cost a chunk of change but if things are as bad as you think it could save a life. Anybody have a suggestion of who to call in NJ?
Maillon Rapide is a French company who makes the world's only legitimate rated quick links. I just noticed that my sand bag rigging system uses Chinese made 500lb "rated" quick links. Have to do something about that soon. (Van they were installed by your old buddies by the way.)
As for your comment about buying good American made shackles at the local hardware store I'm skeptical. There are VERY few corner hardware stores that stock GOOD rigging hardware (Home Depot and Lowes sure don't stock it). You typically need to go through some sort of specialty dealer located in the industrial part of town or find a Grainger (they carry C.M.). Beyond that your best bet is your local theater dealer or purchasing from one of the national theater rigging companies (call and ask for help). There are a few exceptions but generally, if it isn't made by Columbus McKinnon or Crosby don't buy it.
It sounds like you could really use a rigging inspection. It'll cost a chunk of change but if things are as bad as you think it could save a life. Anybody have a suggestion of who to call in NJ?
Just checked the catalog. Chain is from Advantage Sales and Supply Company, Inc. and most other hardware (thimbles,clips, eyebolts, shackles, etc.) is from Crosby. the hardware store is actually pretty good. but they also make their own lifting assemblies and custom hydraulic hoses on site. they also rent everything from 100' boom reaches to concrete vibrators.
Sorry I'm a west coast guy. I forget how tightly packed together you guys are. I'm used to biger states and a 3 hour drive between major cities.Is NJ near Philadelphia?
I'd be interested in the actual inspection. Who did it? Can they produce a copy of the inspection? If it was inspected by the same company who did the installation, tnen there would be no checks and balances. Based upon what you are telling us, I'm not sure that there was a proper inspection done.
What is your role in this theater? Employee, student, volunteer?
well employee(not officially on the payroll)/consultant/alumnus.the title Ive come up with for myself is stage crew moderator. the crew is all students and they cant do anything unattended in the theater so the title puts me along the lines of a coach. what i actually do though is like everything. i help them build flats, hang lights pull wire, check safety stuff, do capital improvements in the theater, blah blah blah. if anyone has a better, more theatrical type title for what i do throw it out there.
As to the inspection, Ive posted everything i know about it. i don't know who did it or when or how well...one more reason im skeptical. fortunately the teachers have been in strike this week so the actors arent having practice. so im not worrying about the stuff hanging over their heads.
As to the inspection, Ive posted everything i know about it. i don't know who did it or when or how well...one more reason im skeptical. fortunately the teachers have been in strike this week so the actors arent having practice. so im not worrying about the stuff hanging over their heads.
There are some good rigging companies around Philadelphia, if you can't get anyone there in a timely fashion PM me. I am going to be in Trenton rigging a show and would be glad to stop by and give a free consult. This would be an informal look, something official would cost.
Just a note that a formal rigging inspection takes several days as the person inspects EVERY inch of your fly system. When they are done they will give you a big written report giving detailed information on what needs to be fixed immediately, what is showing signs of wear and should be watched, what is dangerous what is not. If you haven't seen one, such a report is fascinating to read.
Having someone who knows about rigging (like mstaylor) stop in and just give you some initial impressions would be very helpful. No you won't get a full report of what you need to do, but you will get a good sense of how good or bad things generally are. Which should be helpful in pushing your administration to pay for a full inspection and repairs. To others who may be reading this, I am convinced there is a qualified person at just about every university in this country who wouldn't mind stopping by for a few minutes to give your system a quick look. Don't by shy, give them a call.
Having someone who knows about rigging (like mstaylor) stop in and just give you some initial impressions would be very helpful. No you won't get a full report of what you need to do, but you will get a good sense of how good or bad things generally are. Which should be helpful in pushing your administration to pay for a full inspection and repairs. To others who may be reading this, I am convinced there is a qualified person at just about every university in this country who wouldn't mind stopping by for a few minutes to give your system a quick look. Don't by shy, give them a call.
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Looks like I need to explicitly state something that Derek and Gaff have touched upon.
You are a stone's throw from Philly. Uncle Bill's warehouse is in NW Philly (I live there... NW Philly... not the warehouse!).
Sapsis Rigging Inc is the place you want to contact for your inspection, they are the local guys, and they are in the top tier.
A full inspection might not take days... (Gaff, I've seen Sapsis get in and out in under a day, in a venue probably much larger with many more linesets than the OP probably has.)
Sapsis not only specializes in design and installation, but also inspections. You can trust them, 100%.
Out of curiosity, who DID you use? With Sapsis so close, there really isn't a reason to use anyone else.
mjw56, you now know who to contact. Given how many things you've already found out to be not safe. You've already found out enough to warrant a full system inspection. Tell the principal that you've found X number of critically dangerous and out-of-code things with your system. Site the eyebolts, quicklinks, and thimble-less aircraft cable. Explain in detail how each one can lead to a catastrophic failure (it's theatre, use some dramatic words!
) and how it is wrong, and explain what is right. Convince him that the system is broken.
I would like to steal Gaff's common idea, and create a piece of theatre. Have your meeting with the principal in the theater. When you walk onstage, put on a hardhat... give one to him too. Fly something. Point out the quicklinks, explaining that they could open, and everything could fall. Point out the thimble-less aircraft cable, explaining that it no longer can carry its rated load. Point to one of the eyebolts, and take a prop out of your pocket (a cheap corner store eyebolt, already bent open). This should go a long way to making your case.
You are a stone's throw from Philly. Uncle Bill's warehouse is in NW Philly (I live there... NW Philly... not the warehouse!).
Sapsis Rigging Inc is the place you want to contact for your inspection, they are the local guys, and they are in the top tier.
A full inspection might not take days... (Gaff, I've seen Sapsis get in and out in under a day, in a venue probably much larger with many more linesets than the OP probably has.)
Sapsis not only specializes in design and installation, but also inspections. You can trust them, 100%.
Out of curiosity, who DID you use? With Sapsis so close, there really isn't a reason to use anyone else.
mjw56, you now know who to contact. Given how many things you've already found out to be not safe. You've already found out enough to warrant a full system inspection. Tell the principal that you've found X number of critically dangerous and out-of-code things with your system. Site the eyebolts, quicklinks, and thimble-less aircraft cable. Explain in detail how each one can lead to a catastrophic failure (it's theatre, use some dramatic words!
) and how it is wrong, and explain what is right. Convince him that the system is broken.I would like to steal Gaff's common idea, and create a piece of theatre. Have your meeting with the principal in the theater. When you walk onstage, put on a hardhat... give one to him too. Fly something. Point out the quicklinks, explaining that they could open, and everything could fall. Point out the thimble-less aircraft cable, explaining that it no longer can carry its rated load. Point to one of the eyebolts, and take a prop out of your pocket (a cheap corner store eyebolt, already bent open). This should go a long way to making your case.
Hamming it up for safety is a great idea.
i didnt want to name names but the company is called ****. myself and the LD have both agreed that were never letting them in the theater again. but we are still buying lighting fixtures from them (they had a 20% off sale)
ill check out sapsis and talk to mstaylor about coming to visit.
an inspecion should go rather quickly as there are only 2 uncounterweighted linesets and evetything else is only 25' off the ground.
i really want to thank everyone for their help here because there is so much more going on than just what ive mentioed. jack chain, s hooks, i even found zip ties (which i fixed already).
an inspecion should go rather quickly as there are only 2 uncounterweited linesets and evetything else is only 25' off the ground.
Again Thank you.
i didnt want to name names but the company is called ****. myself and the LD have both agreed that were never letting them in the theater again. but we are still buying lighting fixtures from them (they had a 20% off sale)
ill check out sapsis and talk to mstaylor about coming to visit.
an inspecion should go rather quickly as there are only 2 uncounterweighted linesets and evetything else is only 25' off the ground.
i really want to thank everyone for their help here because there is so much more going on than just what ive mentioed. jack chain, s hooks, i even found zip ties (which i fixed already).
an inspecion should go rather quickly as there are only 2 uncounterweited linesets and evetything else is only 25' off the ground.
Again Thank you.
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Bill Sapsis is definitely the go to guy in Philly, it's what he does, I took a rigging class from him, so I wouldn't have a problem recomending him. Remember the offending company's name, they can be excluded from future bids because of shoddy or dangerous workmanship.
my lighting install got half a##ed by an alumni electrician. he didn't communicate any more than he had to. didn't do any research into the equipment being connected and therefore the neutral on our 400 amp service is not sized for 150% of the load from the hots as the install manual suggests and states is theoretically possible. i managed to find that bit of data on my own... on 10 min.....as a senior in high school
sdmsc
Member
You got me wondering, so I looked up the ASTM specs.
ASTM A973 / A973M - 07 Standard Specification for Grade 100 Alloy Steel Chain
ASTM A413 / A413M - 07 Standard Specification for Carbon Steel Chain
Of course one has to pay for the entire spec, but the abstract gives some clues. Both call for proof testing and batch destructive testing. But the grade 100 spec says "The alloy steel shall be fully killed and have an austenitic grain size of five or finer." This non-performance-based spec is a big clue. Combined with what I read elsewhere (Oh, I run a test lab for fork lift masts - I put 10,000 lb over my head, and wiggle it around, frequently - I have been looking into this chain business a lot lately!), I see that what they're after are two key things. 1) High ductility, so the chain absorbs a lot of energy after it starts to fail, and 2) High surface hardness, to resist wear. [I recently had a grade 43 chain rub itself to nothing on a hard steel corner, fortunately that was just a horizontal chain keeping the load block up on a set of forks, which were only a foot off the ground]
Ductility and hardness in metals are usually not partners. Generally one goes up as the other goes down. Plain carbon steel won't get there, though it could make comparable breaking strength numbers. So in the higher grade specs they spell out composition, microstructure (that grain size thing above), and heat treatment, on top of the measurable performance specs.
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Shawn Mahaney
MSME
MPowers
Well-Known Member
Although the original OP was back in 2009, and probably couldn't care less now, there is a point that seems to be missed all along the way. First, over head rigging is NOT limited to G8 hardware, G5 is what is supplied by rigging manufacturers. Second, but the major point, in the use described by the OP, it is not "Overhead Lifting". That designation is for chain that actually reeves over a cog wheel or winch drum. See the white paper from the JR Clancy web site
http://www.jrclancy.com/Downloads/ChainforTheatricalUse1.pdf
As you see, not only is G30 proof coil fine for theatrical rigging, grade 80 is specifically NOT recommended. If for any reason you need (or feel the need for) a stronger chain, both SECOA and JR Clancy offer a grade 63 theatrical chain that is rated, stamped and fits the shackles, Clancy's is called "Alpha" chain.
Theatre & Stage Equipment Products - Rigging Accessories - AlphaChain.
I prefer the Clancy version as it comes in black.
In reality the OP did his theatre an un-knowing disservice by insisting on Grade 80 chain. The cost was too high and the PITA of trying to use shackles turn buckles that don't fit meant non standard hardware and greater labor costs.
http://www.jrclancy.com/Downloads/ChainforTheatricalUse1.pdf
As you see, not only is G30 proof coil fine for theatrical rigging, grade 80 is specifically NOT recommended. If for any reason you need (or feel the need for) a stronger chain, both SECOA and JR Clancy offer a grade 63 theatrical chain that is rated, stamped and fits the shackles, Clancy's is called "Alpha" chain.
Theatre & Stage Equipment Products - Rigging Accessories - AlphaChain.
I prefer the Clancy version as it comes in black.
In reality the OP did his theatre an un-knowing disservice by insisting on Grade 80 chain. The cost was too high and the PITA of trying to use shackles turn buckles that don't fit meant non standard hardware and greater labor costs.
teqniqal
Well-Known Member
You can tell if you have these by checking the markings:
Péguet - Peguet - Maillon rapide - Quality / Safety
