Automated Fixtures Entry level LED profiles

[Jeffhtg]

Its funny to me that Chauvet and ADJ have beat most of the world to using LED spots.. and I get that they did so because they are not perfect for most of us yet.

However they do exist. And the Q spot and Q beam particularly interest me. Coming from big production (outdoor festivals) and very familiar with what is available in pro fixtures. These small banjo center lights seem to be a pretty viable - if not ideal solution for club life and small shows.

The Q Spot 260 has been out for awhile now. I know some of you have been using them. With a street price of 800-900$ they are really affordable to almost anyone. So the big question.. how have they held up?

The Q Beams pack amazing punch.. At LDI I saw some China generics that were pretty good as well.. I know Techni-lux also has a beam and a led spot coming out that compare in features and I've used them once or twice for small club stuff. They were in a place that replaced their trackspot rig. BUT I haven't owned any - transported them - or taken one apart.

So

1. Who else is making comparable fixtures (and which do you think is the best).

2. Any users of these products have issues yet? If so what kind of issues.

 

[metti]

There's always the Mac 350 which is actually from a company with a good track record in terms of reliability. In terms of Chauvet and ADJ, I haven't used these particular products but given how poorly their non-moving LED fixtures hold up, there is no way I would invest in anything from them that has moving parts since the likelihood of failure is so much higher.

 

[Jeffhtg]

There's always the Mac 350 which is actually from a company with a good track record in terms of reliability. In terms of Chauvet and ADJ, I haven't used these particular products but given how poorly their non-moving LED fixtures hold up, there is no way I would invest in anything from them that has moving parts since the likelihood of failure is so much higher.

With a street price of 4x higher than the other fixtures I wouldn't really consider the 350 a contender yet. Granted this was the first spot LED I saw - and it was a brilliant fixture for its time.. I just think the LED engine cost was too much for this early developer.

 

[bishopthomas]

I just bought some Chinese LED spot ML's that seem to be a knock off of the QSpot 260. They arrive on Wednesday and I plan on doing a full write up on here about them.

 

[soundlight]

I recently saw a demo of the 260 and also took it apart to check out the internals. It looks solidly built, and I like how much of the motion is direct drive (ie no belts, gears, &c). Less moving parts to fail. Beat the crap out of it and it didn't mess up. I'll be checking out a demo of the Q-Spot 560 LED this week.

 

[metti]

With a street price of 4x higher than the other fixtures I wouldn't really consider the 350 a contender yet.

I would agree that the Mac350 isn't contending for the same market as these lights but it is certainly a contender. While the 350 is certainly lacking some features that I would consider to be pretty important (color mixing, for example) I'm pretty sure that the high price is justifiable. Saying the 350 isn't a contender because it is 4x more expensive than Chauvet/ADJ's offerings is like saying the VL3000 isn't a contender because is is several times more expensive than the Legend 1200E Spot.

 

[Jeffhtg]

I recently saw a demo of the 260 and also took it apart to check out the internals. It looks solidly built, and I like how much of the motion is direct drive (ie no belts, gears, &c). Less moving parts to fail. Beat the crap out of it and it didn't mess up. I'll be checking out a demo of the Q-Spot 560 LED this week.

VERY interested in that fixture..

 

[Jeffhtg]

I would agree that the Mac350 isn't contending for the same market as these lights but it is certainly a contender. While the 350 is certainly lacking some features that I would consider to be pretty important (color mixing, for example) I'm pretty sure that the high price is justifiable. Saying the 350 isn't a contender because it is 4x more expensive than Chauvet/ADJ's offerings is like saying the VL3000 isn't a contender because is is several times more expensive than the Legend 1200E Spot.

I don't consider $3000+ entry level sorry.

 

[metti]

I don't consider $3000+ entry level sorry.

Fair enough. It's all rather relative.

 

[jfetter]

I just bought some Chinese LED spot ML's that seem to be a knock off of the QSpot 260. They arrive on Wednesday and I plan on doing a full write up on here about them.

I just purchased 4 x 60W LED Moving Heads, they appear to be the Q-Spot 260 LED but calling them "generic" IMO is unfair as they are in-fact the real thing. I sometimes am surprised folks assume the Chinese can't do something without guidance or someone else's know how, clearly these were designed and built in China and Chauvet just rebrands them for resale. Now having the manual in front of me, it's very clear the products are identical, same design, same dimensions, same features, same DMX channels, same firmware menus and options, you get the point. The main difference is the cost, $420 each (order of 4 units) including shipping from China, that's a big difference...

 

[VCTMike]

I just purchased 4 x 60W LED Moving Heads, they appear to be the Q-Spot 260 LED but calling them "generic" IMO is unfair as they are in-fact the real thing. I sometimes am surprised folks assume the Chinese can't do something without guidance or someone else's know how, clearly these were designed and built in China and Chauvet just rebrands them for resale. Now having the manual in front of me, it's very clear the products are identical, same design, same dimensions, same features, same DMX channels, same firmware menus and options, you get the point. The main difference is the cost, $420 each (order of 4 units) including shipping from China, that's a big difference...

Do you have a link to this fixture/supplier available?

 

[Wood4321]

Sometimes a copy is just that, a very good copy...
Take a look at some of the Avo knockoffs. They actually direct you to Avo's website to download desk software.

Part of the reason the price is so low is that they don't have to pay for the R&D time, they just copy the fixtures.

Take a look at this link
[URL="http://www.mslighting.com.cn/ProductShow.asp?ID=540"][/URL]
Maybe they make the sharpy for Clay Paky as well? I don't think so.

I am sure the specs and dimensions match the Clay Paky Sharpy in every detail, that doesn't make it legitimate.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I have little respect for anyone who knowingly buys a product that is obviously a knockoff.

 

[jfetter]

Do you have a link to this fixture/supplier available?

I do, The name of the company is MS Lighting, you can find them via any web search but they also have an e-commerce site, which is their AliExpress (Alibaba) site, which means you can pay them (Alibaba) and they will hold the funds until you receive the product as expected, it's an escrow service, trusted and reliable. Chinese New Year runs until January 31, until then they have disabled most of their product (I know, I know, what can you do?) so you may be able to see the price but you can't order. I know this first hand as I am working on an order directly via e-mail for 4 x MD LED 3641Z fixtures, which is their 10Wx36 LED Moving Head Zoom Wash (think Chauvet Q-Wash 360Z but with 36 x RGBW LED's instead of 4 sets of 3W colored LED's, SLICK!)

Here's some HD video I took of the new MH LED 60D Moving Heads I ordered, take a look if you have some time...

Jack

 

[Wood4321]

Jack,
I would like to hear your response to my post, Do you believe MS lighting is making the Sharpy for Clay Paky?

 

[jfetter]

Sometimes a copy is just that, a very good copy...
Take a look at some of the Avo knockoffs. They actually direct you to Avo's website to download desk software.

Part of the reason the price is so low is that they don't have to pay for the R&D time, they just copy the fixtures.

Take a look at this link
http://www.mslighting.com.cn/ProductShow.asp?ID=540


Maybe they make the sharpy for Clay Paky as well? I don't think so.

I am sure the specs and dimensions match the Clay Paky Sharpy in every detail, that doesn't make it legitimate.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I have little respect for anyone who knowingly buys a product that is obviously a knockoff.

Joshua

First I want to say I am not an expert in moving fixtures nor am I trying to cause problems. As a new member, I realize posting something like this can start a flame war if not respectful. I am a member on some other forums withthousands of posts, so I am not new to forum etiquette either, I am saying this just so you know where I am coming from. Also, I never intended to buy Chinese lights, I started looking at the Q-Spot 360 and only stumbled onto the Chinese option later, after seeing some posts and video from others.

Now I also fly radio control jets, each of these runs in the neighborhood of $7,500 - $10,000+ and the ones I fly are made by a company here in South Florida called BVM, known as the best. I know the owner, he's fairly famous in the RC field and his products are copied by the Chinese all the time. Sometimes they even take stock photos of HIS product and use them on their own product boxes,it's a problem for him. I only mention this so you understand I'm not somec heap SOB looking for nothing but a deal, caring only about price and I do understand how some products are literally cloned and how that affects the designer and even patent holder.

In the case of this fixture, I do fully believe Chauvet simply went to one of the Chinese shows and saw the product and worked out an OEM deal. Though I am a computer engineer, I have 4 years of drafting, I worked as a finish trim carpenter for 5+ years when younger, I can take apart and build almost anything and I do build RC jets neater and cleaner than most guys are capable of, I am somewhat anal retentive and very mechanical I guess is the point. When I see this fixture, the design, the assembly, the fasteners, the features, functions, firmware menu, DMX channels, colors, color sequence, gobo's, panels, buttons, dimensions and even documentation of the Chauvet fixture is absolutely identical, even the same PDF page layout, and I don't mean LIKE the Chinese one, I mean the SAME exact text, font and pictures, yes... I can say it isn't a copy but the real thing.

The Chinese are smart, they have just as capable engineers as we do, they design some of the most advanced products on the various markets so I'm not sure why THEY have to be the ones copying or they couldn't have designed these, did you see the Olympic opening ceremonies?!. Do you think it's more logical that Chauvet designed and had this fixture built and the Chinese copied everything about it (and I mean EVERYTHING) only to offer it for less than HALF of the Chauvet MSRP? Or possibly that the product, like many other products OEM'ed in the rest of the world was designed and built in China to begin with and they can sell it for what it actually costs to make, plus a fair profit? Again, I'm not trying to argue but being in the computer field for 20+ years, I know where all the parts in the "American" computers actually come from and have been coming from for some time, it's not a stretch at all to apply the same model to intelligent lighting. Also, this company does not market the fixture as a Q-Spot, they make no mention of it, it's not like they are using it in any way.

Now again, I never went looking for Chinese products and I had doubts at first too, like most people would. But I have seen enough evidence for me to conclude these are not copies, no shortcuts were taken and in fact the only difference is the housing, which doesn't have the quick-change gobo door, which may be the only Chauvet engineering that went into this particular fixture and one they likely can't re-sell through whatever OEM deal they have. I've seen side-by-side video of a guy who purchased these almost as soon as the Chauvet Q-Spot hit the market, which he purchased along with the Chinese version, he concluded the same thing after going so far as looking under the covers. I will be happy to show what I have or peek under the hood if interested, knowing one way or the other is a good thing IMO...

Regards,

Jack

 

[jfetter]

Sometimes a copy is just that, a very good copy...
Take a look at some of the Avo knockoffs. They actually direct you to Avo's website to download desk software.

Part of the reason the price is so low is that they don't have to pay for the R&D time, they just copy the fixtures.

Take a look at this link


http://www.mslighting.com.cn/ProductShow.asp?ID=540


Maybe they make the sharpy for Clay Paky as well? I don't think so.

I am sure the specs and dimensions match the Clay Paky Sharpy in every detail, that doesn't make it legitimate.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I have little respect for anyone who knowingly buys a product that is obviously a knockoff.

I honestly don't know the product well enough to say but I will tell you this, I don't believe MS Lighting is making MY fixture either, they simply re-sell it and the company that does make it has many different "faces". What does this mean, I may not know the exact manufacturer but that doesn't mean much really, the same happens here in America with re-branded and OEM parts. I do believe the Chauvet fixture is made in China and that same fixture sold "generic" with many names such as the one I purchased, I also believe it's likely designed in China and Chauvet may at most add some custom features to it but there's nothing crazy about this idea either, this model is and has been in use for some time for MANY products we all routinely buy and use...

Jack

 

[Wood4321]

Fair enough,
However close the 2 may be, Even if they look Identical, I think the MS lighting one is a copy.
Often times the fixtures look so similar because the tooling "falls of a truck" and ends up in another factory. Same thing with the software, the software looks the same because they steal the software from the original fixture.

I would think that chauvet, with a fairly large global presence would frown upon a manufacturer selling an identical product for half price in the same market.
Thats a large part of the reason I believe that this fixture, and all fixtures MS lighting make are complete replicas.
I agree with you about the chinese people, they can build amazing things, However their culture doesn't have the same stigma to intellectual property theft as we do.
They don't see why it is a problem to copy someone else's design. Why design your own product when someone else has already done the work? (And Spent the money?)

If you have any doubt, I would ask chauvet and see what they have to say about those fixtures. I would think if they are OEM'ing them from a chinese manufacturer, they would have no problem admitting it.

Once again, my apologies if I came off harsh, its one of my "hot buttons".

 

[jfetter]

Fair enough,
However close the 2 may be, Even if they look Identical, I think the MS lighting one is a copy.
Often times the fixtures look so similar because the tooling "falls of a truck" and ends up in another factory. Same thing with the software, the software looks the same because they steal the software from the original fixture.

I would think that chauvet, with a fairly large global presence would frown upon a manufacturer selling an identical product for half price in the same market.
Thats a large part of the reason I believe that this fixture, and all fixtures MS lighting make are complete replicas.
I agree with you about the chinese people, they can build amazing things, However their culture doesn't have the same stigma to intellectual property theft as we do.
They don't see why it is a problem to copy someone else's design. Why design your own product when someone else has already done the work? (And Spent the money?)

If you have any doubt, I would ask chauvet and see what they have to say about those fixtures. I would think if they are OEM'ing them from a chinese manufacturer, they would have no problem admitting it.

Once again, my apologies if I came off harsh, its one of my "hot buttons".

You didn't come off as harsh, I went out of my way to let you know where I am coming from so we could have a good conversation about this subject which can be touchy for many reasons. I also know someone like myself, with very few posts (noob to this forum), can get off on the wrong foot very easily ;-)

Here's the parts about the "copy" argument I don't get;

1.) The firware has some odd programming verbiage, the words and flow are certainly not logical or intuitive (I'm a programmer). I make the argument if written by an engineer of a large company and run through an english speaking project manager, as you would expect Chauvet to have, much of it would not look as though a Chinese engineer created it.

2.) The manual, very much the same as the firmware/OS, odd phrasing and a few words that seem to be poorly translated. Chauvet has a manual too, it's literally word-for-word the same except for about 3 paragraphs regarding RMA returns (wither their name and address). Wouldn't you expect the Chauvet manual to be "better"? Honestly!

3.) Appearance (fit and finish), again this is a real biggie for me, it's not "close" it's "exact"! If making a "clone", why go as far as use quality fasteners, cut parts versus stamping them? Why would you wrap wires in jackets and tie-wrap them in-place? To me a copy is inferior yet if this is a copy, it seems very well built and "engineered", not just thrown together to make a buck, it seems a true clone.

Now here's a good question, maybe an observation but assuming this IS a clone, yet from all appearances looks the same AND performs the same, how can anyone justify paying the price of the original? I'm all for making a buck but if the same product can seemingly be made and shipped for $420, doesn't $999 MSRP seem extreme? Again, I do not think it's a clone for the reasons above and many more but if it is, what place does it have in the market, if any? You are assuming it violates intellectual property, right? I'd have to agree, if a knock off, I too wouldn't support them but again, I just don't buy it.

BTW, I remember when I got my Lexus, it was shortly after my BMW and I thought, no way can Toyota be the same, that's just crazy! I would tell myself even if they share some parts, I'm sure Lexus is using "A" grade where maybe Toyota isn't or perhaps Lexus does all the engineering. Of course this went on until I learned my Lexus is almost all Toyota, the engine literally pulled from the Toyota factory! Now Lexus doesn't advertise that but nonetheless it is a fact. Did Lexus do all the hard work and Toyota just "build it" (as though the easy part!)? Or... Does it seem more logical that Toyota did most of it and Lexus is just marketing to a select, target audience who they know will pay more for the marble showroom, service bay clean enough to eat from and customer service with assigned staff? I don't know where to go with this, I don't see a way to resolve it short of a component-by-component model number comparison, any ideas?

Jack

 

[jfetter]

Not to beat a dead horse but take this statement directly from the Chauvet web site;

"Most products are manufactured in Asia. Product design, marketing, technical support, sales, sourcing, quality control, warehousing and shipping are handled in the USA."

Now if you break it down, other than "Product design", the rest of that sentence is nothing more than testing, stocking parts, reparing fixtures here in the states and handling all sales and marketing. Now what does "Product design" really mean? To me, ground-up engineering but to some, it may be picking the gobo's and gel colors perhaps? Certainly both of those descriptions could be called "Product design" and be accurate. I hope you will at least concede, taking all the emotion out of the argument, that there is room for what I surmise, to be dead-on accurate...

Jack

 

[Morte615]

I know it happens in electronics, and I would presume in theatrical lights also, that smaller US dealers buy products that are designed and built overseas and then get them in, slap their name on it, and sell it for a slight markup. But I am also sure that the larger names in the industry (Apollo, ETC, ect) do their own engineering and design, then send the information to a factory overseas who then turns it out in quantity for cheap.

And of course I am sure that on occasion these factories take those designs, modify them enough to get around patents, and ship them under another name. But the larger companies usually have a pretty good size legal team and do a pretty good job of keeping those products out of the US.