Firecode

[derekleffew]

Where did you take that theater safety class?...

I believe [user]gafftaper[/user] has stated previously he attended a "Dr. Doom" seminar. If you ever have a chance, I highly recommend it. (Although I think I heard recently he was in ill health.)

...While that sounds crazy to me, what's the best way to go about retreating them?...

I doubt "hot storage" would affect them that adversely. Perform the match test first by yourself, before calling your local AHJ. Do a local search for "drapery flameproofing".

Does the treatment rule apply to theater seats as well then? ...

You haven't been paying attention. There is no "treatment rule"--it's up to each individual fire marshal. If the seats were reused in a new building, I'm sure your building dept./fire marshal approved it, provided the construction was properly permitted.

 

[Sayen]

I should have said treatment rule of thumb or common wisdom. I would assume that like all materials chairs would lose their resistance to flame over time? I took a ton of grief over keeping the old curtains, along with salvaging lights and other equipment from the demo'd building, I would love to throw something tangible back in the face of the district officials making my life rough. I couldn't find anything on hot storage affecting the curtains, but we had a lengthy email battle about just throwing them away. You'd never guess that we're in a budget crisis the way schools throw away materials.

Through the construction process I'm learning that many code issues are formalities. The fire inspector cleared our building, but never went up to the ceiling level. A recent inspection from a rigging company found things like sprinkler heads that were still taped over for painting, or dangerously suspended materials over the audience. I gather that the inspectors enter at ground level, eyeball the room along with architectural plans, and make decisions based on only what they see - at least out where I live.

Thanks for the link!

 

[lieperjp]

From the Don't try this at home kids file...
I took a theater safety class last year and we had fun with fire afternoon. We took old and new pieces of curtains, we got them wet with plain water, washed them in soap, washed with dry cleaning fluid, we took an old theater seat... and we burned them all with both a lighter and blow torch. It was fascinating to see results.

Theater seats are treated to prevent them from catching fire. However when you put a flame to them for a long enough period of time eventually the treated exterior disintegrates exposing the foam interior. Once that happen, that baby's going up fast and putting out nasty toxic fumes too! As for the curtain samples we found that just getting a curtain wet with clear water can have a devastating effect on the retardancy. You could actually see white "stains" in the fabric... that's the retardant material that has been leached out of the fibers and is no longer useless. Those of you with old theaters that you have no idea the history of, take a close look at your curtains for white powdery looking water marks... if you see them you have a big problem. A curtain washed in drycleaning fluid held up nearly as long as the control. The most interesting thing was what happens if you take a brand new treated curtain and put a blow torch to it. It doesn't "burn" but it slowly turns to charred ash and disintegrates... it's like the retardant is preventing the flame but the thing is still smoldering to oblivion.

I want to know where he got dry cleaning fluid!!! If he was using standard Dry Cleaning Perchloroethylene, that can be very dangerous. After working in a (now defunct) Dry Cleaners for years, I hope everyone involved was wearing proper safety equipment!!!

Anyway, back to my point. Don't Dry Clean your curtains!!! (May be redundant/unnecessary to say.) Hire a professional to clean and re-apply flame retardant. Not only is it unlikely that a dry cleaner will even accept your extremely heavy curtains, but the methods used to clean them do vary from cleaner to cleaner. (I believe California is aiming to ban Perchloroethylene use, and "Perc" is pretty much a standard in the dry cleaning world.) Not only that, but once your curtains would be cleaned, they also would be pressed using steam. The presses designed to press and crease pleated curtains often do leave condensed water (though you would never know it, usually, after they have dried.) This will hurt your curtains, as stated before.

 

[mixmaster]

Not true... and you answered your own question why. It's totally up to the local authority. You should definitely have them tested every 5 years but there are plenty of 20 year old curtains out there that are still fully retardant. We tested an old curtain that was at least 30 years old and it still passed the local standards. As has been said over and over it's all about local standards.

Gafftaper,
My information came from my local fire chief. It concured with information from the last 3 cities that I worked regularly in. However, my own reaserch seems to agree with you NFPA doesn't seem to specify a time. Somewhere there must be a document that says five years though, I've heard it so often it must be coming from somewhere. I found the following websites that provided information
Theatrical Drapery Manufacturing: Fire Retardant Fabrics, Auditorium Curtains, School Stage Curtains, Trade Show Exhibit Booths
US Flame Retardancy Regulations, Fire Retardant Fabrics

The need for a fire curtain (or deluge/water system) is determined based on how high your fly space is in relation to the height of your auditorium. If the fly space is very tall it requires a fire curtain (or other system). If you have a lower fly space then the code defines the entire auditorium as one room and you don't need a fire curtain. I'm sure some areas require one no matter what. I know a local theater with a grid that is about 45' off the deck that isn't required to have a fire curtain... craziest think I've ever seen... but that's what the formula for the local fire code determined.

With regard to sprinklers, the number of heads and water volume is based on the height of the protected spacing, and the potential fireload in the space. I'm speculating here, but fire curtain requirements are probably based on stage space (volume). A stage with no fly gallery may not be big enough to require a curtain. Another consideration may be the age of the venue. An past venue I worked in had a firecurtain, my bigger venue is about the same size but is much older and may be grandfathered in from before the relevant codes.

 

[museav]

Perhaps it is important to understand that national 'codes' such as IBC, NEC and NFPA are not the law except as adopted into law. Codes and ordinances are set locally (city, county or state) and while these codes and ordinances typically reference or adopt national codes, they may also modify them. In fact a city code may reference a county code that references a state code that references a national code with each along the way adding their own specific provisions. This is why it is so important to check the local codes and ordinances.

In reference to some of the other comments, changes to a facility may also require updating to meet current codes. I have been involved in renovation projects that started out as being something very simple but turned much more comprehensive when the changes planned in turn required addressing newer building and life safety codes, ADA compliance, asbestos abatement and so forth.

 

[gafftaper]

Where did you take that theater safety class? Sounds like something I'd be interested in.

Central Washington University has a summer masters degree program for teachers. It takes about three years attending 5 weeks a year to get your masters... theres a lot of extra work at home during the year as well. Our own "Thorin81" just started the program this summer and is probably still writing papers. Anyway you don't have to be in the program to take the classes. You can sign up for personal enrichment as well. They offer week long classes and short intense workshops. These workshops are 3 days, 10 hrs a day, 3 credits... BAM! It's intense. I've taken three of these 3 day classes: Theater Management, Theater Safety and Maintenance, and Rigging. They only offer a few per summer. It's a good program more info here. DR. Doom's book was part of the Safety and Maintenance class.

Perhaps it is important to understand that national 'codes' such as IBC, NEC and NFPA are not the law except as adopted into law. Codes and ordinances are set locally (city, county or state) and while these codes and ordinances typically reference or adopt national codes, they may also modify them. In fact a city code may reference a county code that references a state code that references a national code with each along the way adding their own specific provisions. This is why it is so important to check the local codes and ordinances.

Yeah the key in all this safety stuff is what your local fire marshal wants. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant since very few codes are adopted locally. You need to know the codes so that you can be proactive... but don't count on anyone to come down on you because you haven't had your curtains tested for 10 years. On the flip side you may find a psycho fire marshal who wants your curtains tested every other year... it sucks to be you. Local adoption and enforcement is very limited and random. Did you know that Idaho is the only state that has occupational safety laws specifiably written for theater? There aren't many... but they do have a small section specifically about theater. Everywhere else we rely on applying principles from a variety of other industries.

 

[thenelsontwins]

Look on the tag on the soft good, call that company and ask them. As far as what you need to "fireproof", most places just require backpainting everything, and in some instances require actual fireproof solution to be applied to all surfaces, usually though you have to be using pyro to get to that level.

BUT. YOU MUST CONTACT YOUR LOCAL FIREMARSHAL, RULES ARE DIFFERENT ACCROSS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, DO NOT TAKE ANY ADVICE HERE FOR LAW, YOU MUST CONTACT YOUR LOCAL FIREMARSHAL.

Some places require a fire marshal inspection before every show opens, some don't. Just depends on the area and what type of suppression is available at the theatre.

YEP. Exactly. Check the tag, if no tag, figure out what to do next. 8 years is a while. Typically it is 5 years, but there are differences from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Some of the larger carpet cleaning companies deal in large drapery cleaning and flameproofing, but your options are limited and it is expensive. Sometimes flame retardant is your best friend but the soft goods then feel slimy and the crap gets everywhere when applying.

If you have drapery from a larger manufacturer, there may be a test sample that is from the same drapery they made with the same treatment that will also be the the same age. Handy! But typically those are long since lost.

The Fire Marshal coming over should be treated just like grandma coming over. Clean up! Theater's are weird places that are only loosely governed by the standard laws. What is the OSHA or NEC standard in construction, is not necessarily the same rule in the theater. Most inspectors don't remember this from their training, nor do they like being told the rules by someone without a license to tell them what the rules are.

Clean up, make it pretty, don't give them a reason to suspect anything else, because what is commonplace in the theater world is NOT in the real world.

The F.M. will do a controlled test burn on fabric that is cut from your soft goods. You can do this yourself if you really feel the need. But follow the rules which I will not post. But, keep in mind that the F.M. MUST(!) cut a piece of drape off of your drape!

 

[midgetgreen11]

The fire marshall came in our auditorium the other day and said that "taping cables down to carpet is illegal, and that you can't buy the plastic strips to put over them either"

What are we supposed to do? Our guru said we'll just tape it to the ceiling next time and see what they have to say about that. (Not Really, it was sarcasm)

 

[sobenson]

The fire marshall came in our auditorium the other day and said that "taping cables down to carpet is illegal, and that you can't buy the plastic strips to put over them either"

I would find out exactly what is meant by that. OSHA guidelines on that is for permanent installation it is wrong to do, but for temporary installs it is fine.

 

[museav]

Quote:
Originally Posted by midgetgreen11
The fire marshall came in our auditorium the other day and said that "taping cables down to carpet is illegal, and that you can't buy the plastic strips to put over them either"

I would find out exactly what is meant by that. OSHA guidelines on that is for permanent installation it is wrong to do, but for temporary installs it is fine.

OSHA and fire codes don't really relate to one another. It may be a matter of where the cables are run, if the Fire Marshall considers it to be in an exit path then that path usually has to be kept clear of any potential interference with movement. I have had Fire Marshals make schools move portable equipment in order to keep exit paths clear. I have also had attorneys identify such cabling in some locations as a potential 'trip hazard' that could put the school or venue at risk should anyone in the general public be injured by tripping over the obstruction.

 

[Pie4Weebl]

The fire marshall came in our auditorium the other day and said that "taping cables down to carpet is illegal, and that you can't buy the plastic strips to put over them either"

What are we supposed to do? Our guru said we'll just tape it to the ceiling next time and see what they have to say about that. (Not Really, it was sarcasm)

go get yourself some ADA approved cable ramps and run your cables through them.