FIRST Lighting Purchase/Install - Please Help

[ChrisKC]

I am a co-owner/co-director of a day program for adults with special needs and developmental disabilities. Put simply, I run a program where these incredible men and women come during the day, Monday through Friday, for fun and interactive activities until it's time for them to go home in the late afternoon. One of our core activities is theatre. They do everything themselves, from writing the script to painting the backdrop to creating the props. Since we opened in 2009, we've produced two shows every year. Our first show had nine actors and was in a very small space and our latest show featured seventeen actors who performed in our current space. Our current space is a multipurpose room. We use it for various activities, games, parties, dances, and the occasional guest speaker or blood drive. That being said, we are at a point financially that I would like to invest in some basic lighting equipment. All we have now are six metal halide high bay lamps (as the space was previously a warehouse space). Right now I would like to basically be able to light the stage and my actors with the MHs turned off. To give you some perspective, previously we've used 75w flood lights in shop lamps clamped to pipes near the ceiling for our lights, powered by extension cords strung along the ceiling and down the wall to an outlet. Not all that effective and pretty unprofessional. But, we are not in a field that generates much in the line of profits, though we do put as much back into the guys as we can. I would like to be able to switch them ON and OFF from a control booth in the rear, perhaps even dim them. This system has the potential to be upgraded. We have plans to build a riser/stage about 8-12" off the floor to separate our actors from the audience and also provide a better viewing angle. I anticipate being in our current building (so using this multipurpose room as our theatre) for the next 3-6 years. After that my goal is to find a space that already has (or we can build) a separate enclosed stage (similar to most grade schools) or even a completely separate and dedicated theatre room.

Room dimensions are as follows:

Room: 64' 10.5" L x 30' 9.5" W

Stage (FOS to Backdrop): 19' 9" D

Backstage: 6' 4.5" D

I am also attaching several pictures of the space for your reference. I really would appreciate any amount of assistance or advice you can offer. Thank you so very much. This will really make such an awesome difference for our performances!

Chris

I am also making a similar request for Audio in its respective forum.

 

[kiwitechgirl]

Room dimensions are as follows:

Room: 64' 10.5" L x 30' 9.5" W

Stage (FOS to Backdrop): 19' 9" D

Backstage: 6' 4.5" D

Height of the room will also matter...although the pictures help with that. I'm wondering if some LED parcans would be suitable for your application; you can plug them into regular power, and then only need to run DMX for control to them, and that can be daisy-chained between units (up to 32 on a single chain before you need a splitter). They are lightweight, don't pull much power and while you may need a few of them, you probably don't need to buy the top-of-the-range ones so you can get more units for your dollars. They give you the ability to colour-change too, which is nice and means no extra outlay on gel. They also have the advantage of not needing a dimmer pack and therefore no big power supplies.

In terms of control for this, depending on how many you get and how complex you want to get (do you want to be able to control every light individually, or will control in banks of four or six do), you can probably get away with a reasonably simple desk, particularly if you're not trying to do anything fancy. A Strand 200 or something similar should serve - that way you could program up a few submasters so you have colours easily accessible on sliders.

This would be upgradeable in the future - if you did add conventional lights and dimmers, they'd still be compatible with your DMX lighting desk.

Someone else will doubtless be able to advise more specifically if you do go down the LED road, as to what to get. My only other question is about rigging - do you have bars in the space or would you be planning to put some up? This does bring issues with loading of whatever the bars are attached to...

 

[echnaret]

How much power do you have available? How much control do you want?

If all you need is a general wash, you could probably get away with 4 or so Par 56's for front light, and maybe two more for top light. Attach them to the I-beams with beam clamps (or attach a pipe to the I-beams and the lights to the pipe, if you want more flexibility), and control the lights with something like this. Granted, it's not the most robust system, but it certainly won't break the bank.

If you want to be able to light up specific areas, you're going to need more advanced fixtures.

 

[ChrisKC]

Height of the room will also matter...although the pictures help with that.

Room height is 17' 5".

My only other question is about rigging - do you have bars in the space or would you be planning to put some up? This does bring issues with loading of whatever the bars are attached to...

I am open to putting up a couple bars or trussing. Whatever is necessary to do the job right. Currently there are just the support beams for the roof in place (and a lot of lines run for the sprinkler system to work around). I will upload a couple of pics to show you what I'm working with...

 

[ChrisKC]

How much power do you have available?

Okay, bear with me as I'm not an electrician. There are two panels in the room. One 400 amp, one 250 amp. The 400 amp powers the 250 from what I can tell. I'll upload pics. This space used to run industrial water jet cutters which typically draw 22-35 kW each. I hope this information helps.

How much control do you want?

For now, minimal control would probably suffice. Can you explain to me what I would be able to do with the Elation you recommended?

If you want to be able to light up specific areas, you're going to need more advanced fixtures.

For instance, stage right and not stage left? What fixtures would I need?

 

[shiben]

For instance, stage right and not stage left? What fixtures would I need?

An ERS like an ETC Source 4, and a dimmer of some sort, and a console capable of controlling as many dimmers as you have. You could use PARs too, but the Source 4 will be more controlled for what you want to do.

 

[icewolf08]

Given the information, I would suggest that you get in touch with a local theatre supplier. It looks like you are in or near Chicago, so finding a supplier shouldn't be difficult. You don't really want to piece this together, you probably want to to buy it as a package with installation and all, that will likely get you the best price. Any good supplier will happily send somone out to look at the space and make suggestions.

While the LED idea mentioned earlier is simple and low power, I am not sure that the lower cost LEDs are ready for the primetime as primary sources of face-light and illumination. They are great for color washes, top and down light, but I am not sure that I would use them for fronts and other key positions, especially if they are all you have and you are doing theatre not rock concerts.

If you really have the power that you think you have (get an electrician to check), then you could probably install one or two battens with integrated dimming like the ETC SmartBar. With something like that you wouldn't have to install dimmer racks, and you could hang a few lights and plug them right in and go. If you were going to go that route, I would hang one pipe in front of the stage and one over it. Then use an ERS fixture like the source 4 for your primary illumination, and if you have the money, maybe throw in some LEDs for top/back light. One of the other good things about going this route, is that it is a lot easier to take something like the SmartBars with you if you ever moved spaces, whereas an installed dimming rack might be a little bit more difficult.

I suppose you will also need a console too, something small and simple is the way to go, but possibly expandable if you need it. The ETC Smartfade comes to mind. It is on the less expensive end and can manage a small rig.

 

[ChrisKC]

Given the information, I would suggest that you get in touch with a local theatre supplier. It looks like you are in or near Chicago, so finding a supplier shouldn't be difficult.

I'm actually in the Kansas City area. Know of any good suppliers here?

You don't really want to piece this together, you probably want to to buy it as a package with installation and all, that will likely get you the best price. Any good supplier will happily send somone out to look at the space and make suggestions.

Given my space and what you've suggested, what would you guess they'd quote me? Just a ballpark...I won't hold you to it.

 

[shiben]

I'm actually in the Kansas City area. Know of any good suppliers here?




Given my space and what you've suggested, what would you guess they'd quote me? Just a ballpark...I won't hold you to it.

Depends what you need/want to get. Could be anywhere from a few thousand to a few million.

 

[DrPinto]

Chris, what is your budget? That makes a world of difference. Our suggestions will be very different if you have $3,000 than if you have $15,000.

Also, if you're sure you're bailing out of the space in a few years, you may want to get something basic until you find a more permanent home.

 

[ChrisKC]

Chris, what is your budget? That makes a world of difference. Our suggestions will be very different if you have $3,000 than if you have $15,000.

Also, if you're sure you're bailing out of the space in a few years, you may want to get something basic until you find a more permanent home.

DrPinto,

I apologize for not having addressed this sooner but I have been trying to nail down an accurate number. Let's say, at present, I have a combined budget of $6,000 for lighting and audio (please refer to my post in Sound, Music, & Intercom). This number is flexible and doesn't necessarily include the cost of a sound board (which I would rather overbuy for the future than underbuy and have to purchase again soon). Keep in mind I may have additional money to add in 6 months, 9 months, etc.

It is true that my goal is to be in this building for the next 3-6 years and then move on to bigger and better things. Thank you for considering this in your advice.

Chris

 

[Gern]

I am a co-owner/co-director...
To give you some perspective, previously we've used 75w flood lights in shop lamps clamped to pipes near the ceiling for our lights, powered by extension cords strung along the ceiling and down the wall to an outlet.

I know your moving in this direction, which is good and I could be wrong, but, looking @ the pictures: It looks like the pipes you are using are Fire Sprinkler pipes. If that's the case, I'd think you really do need to add some lighting points, as I NEVER attach electrics to Fire suppression system pipes! It is a definite "NO-NO" as far as I'm trained. Sorry I don't have the NFPA code to quote, but If it is there, I bet someone here will post it soon!

 

[Morte615]

Yeah I would recommend getting some truss (I think square would work best) and get it hung professionally then you can attach lights to the truss. When you move locations a few years down the road, then you can remove the truss and use it in your new location, and probably expand off of it also.

For your buget I would suggest a few PAR64 fixtures to give an overall wash, with a few Source4's for Spots. There are some LED pars that will offer the same output as a 500W PAR64 but for tripple or more the price. I say go with more PAR64s and just gel them different.

As for power and control I agree with icewolf08 about the ETC Smartbar or similar product. Then an ETC SmartFade or similar for the board. The control system is pretty much all of your light budget ($3,000 figure half of overall) So the light fixtures and truss will probably add another $2 or 3,000 to the total. (Haven't priced anything just throwing numbers out )

Also NEVER ATTACH ANYTHING to Fire Suppression pipes! These pipes are pretty easy to spot, they are made from Black Iron pipe and have the sprinkler heads attached. Just follow the pipe throughout the room, if any pipe is attached to another that has a sprinkler head, don't attached to it! Some places I have seen have painted the pipe RED or SAFETY ORANGE as a way to make it stand out and cause people to question it, (to think twice before attaching to it.)

 

[JohnD]

First off, check the yellow pages:
Kansas City Theatrical & Stage Lighting Equipment | Theatrical & Stage Lighting Equipment in Kansas City, MO - YP.com
Give some of these people a call and a visit, find someone you are comfortable with. They can become your new best friend. Also, ask if they have an ETCP certified rigger on staff.
Even in a small space with a very limited budget, you HAVE to rig things safely.
Check out the some of the companies listed in this WIKI:
Dealers for Supplies and Equipment - ControlBooth
Those with online stores will give you an idea of what we are talking about here, and the relative prices. My two main goto places are Mainstage in Wisconsin(and other locations) and PNTA in Washington state. Full Compass is a good place to start for audio, as is Sweetwater Sound. But buying locally is usually best, they can give a great deal of hand holding and good advice.

 

[ChrisKC]

I know your moving in this direction, which is good and I could be wrong, but, looking @ the pictures: It looks like the pipes you are using are Fire Sprinkler pipes. If that's the case, I'd think you really do need to add some lighting points, as I NEVER attach electrics to Fire suppression system pipes! It is a definite "NO-NO" as far as I'm trained. Sorry I don't have the NFPA code to quote, but If it is there, I bet someone here will post it soon!

My bad if I misspoke. In the past we've hung lights from overhead beams or the track for the overhead door toward the back of the room. I'm not a heights guy, so I delegated that job. Had to look at pictures from past productions to see where they were hung for sure. Definitely didn't hang them from the fire sprinkler lines. I'm very green when it comes to lighting, but not lacking when it comes to common sense. Thanks for looking out for us, though. Safety is a top priority in my life's work.

 

[Les]

My bad if I misspoke. In the past we've hung lights from overhead beams or the track for the overhead door toward the back of the room. I'm not a heights guy, so I delegated that job. Had to look at pictures from past productions to see where they were hung for sure. Definitely didn't hang them from the fire sprinkler lines. I'm very green when it comes to lighting, but not lacking when it comes to common sense. Thanks for looking out for us, though. Safety is a top priority in my life's work.

That was actually what I gathered from your original post, so I don't know why the fire sprinkler topic took off like that (though it is very true).

There's no problem structurally with using the correct beam clamps and attaching lights directly to the building's structural components, but it is less than ideal. Often, it is difficult or impossible to get a safety cable around a support beam, and routing cables can be problematic as well. I would recommend having a qualified person install (rigger) a 1.5" pipe under your favorite beam(s) using pipe hangers. You could hang truss, but it is more expensive and difficult if you're on a budget. Personally, I would just hang pipe and save the money. I'd avoid hanging anything from the garage door track in the future.

A question for the community:
For simply hanging a stationary pipe, would one need a theatrical rigger, or will a structural iron contractor be okay? I don't personally see any problem with it as their work holds up buildings. I would however consult a theatrical consultant for placement and spec advice. Their advice may cost you, but it'll avoid complications such as having the pipe hung too close, to high, too low, etc.

You will also need an electrician to come in and drop power to these locations. The quantity and capacity of the circuits will be dictated by your decision regarded distributed vs. centralized installed dimming.

 

[shiben]

That was actually what I gathered from your original post, so I don't know why the fire sprinkler topic took off like that (though it is very true).

There's no problem structurally with using the correct beam clamps and attaching lights directly to the building's structure, but it is less than ideal. Often, it is difficult or impossible to get a safety cable around a support beam, and routing cables can be problematic as well. I would recommend having a qualified person install a 1.5" pipe under your favorite beam(s) using pipe hangers. You could hang truss, but it is more expensive and difficult if you're on a budget. Personally, I would just hang pipe and save the money. I'd avoid hanging anything from the garage door track in the future.

To be fair a clip light was probably not a problem. However, a pipe sounds like a good plan to me, pretty inexpensive, easy and will work well for you.

 

[rwhealey]

Chris,

I posted in the audio thread as well but I'll crosspost here because there seems to be more discussion going on. I second looking for help from an instillation company, and I have a recommendation!

MSM Systems in Lawrence does excellent work. I'm sure they can find a solution within your budget.

MSM Systems

 

[Gern]

As I said:

...I could be wrong...

And I am happy to be wrong here!

BTW ChrisKC, Your 'Halo' is shining with the 'work' your doing... keep up the great work!
The world needs more saints like you.
Peace

 

[techieman33]

Dave's lights out of Topeka is another option, I have worked with XS out of KC and haven't been impressed with their gear or work in the past. It's pretty common for them to show up without even safety's for their fixtures.