Gate PZM’s

A

ACTSTech

Well-Known Member
Here’s one I never got before. My PZMs went out for a local high school with a good tech guy. He’s having trouble because he claims the walking and movement on the stage is being picked up more than the vocals, but for the tap numbers he likes the sound. I told him gate the mics so you don’t get the walking, but he said he tried it and he didn’t think it helped. Either the kids are stomping or they’re all wearing corduroy or something if that’s louder than vocals... He seemed to think that putting the mics on foam would help, which I explained defeats having the floor mics. The school isn’t very supportive ($750 budget) and can only afford two wireless rentals, so we help where we can, and I’m not sure what advice to give. I don’t think he’s using the PZMs as primary reinforcement because he’s got 2 hanging mics and some Audix choir mics that work in the space.

Without driving there, am I giving him bad advice? I’m going to try talking him through some ideas tonight by phone, but I still think gating the mics would be the best bet. And ideas?
 
A gate won't do anything if the footsteps are louder than the vocals. In fact that could make it worse. Footsteps will open the gate because its the louder noise, but if it is set too high and they AREN'T moving there's the chance that the vocals won't open the gate at all. The best advice you could give is block them closer to the mics and project more.

I'm assuming they're PCC 160's? I've found the sweet spot for them is about 3 feet upstage, if they are too close, because of the height difference, they'll end up sending more of their sound over the top of the mic because they'll be on the top edge of the pick up area, whereas three feet or so puts them squarely in the bubble.

PCC's are great for tap, but they definitely ONLY provide reinforcement, you'll never really get amplification with them without having them gained all to hell and picking up all the ambient noise you don't want.
 
No, Crown PZM 30Ds. I retired the PCCs a few years ago. My PZMs usually live inside the lids of grand pianos during live shows, but a buddy of mine borrows them a few times a year for Opera. He likes them because they give just enough lift to get singers up over the orchestra. Preference I suppose. Anyhow, they’re out for this show primarily because the director wants the tap numbers to be heard.

I think the problem is not the walking, it’s that he’s running them too hot. They’re not necessarily vocal mics, but I think he’s trying to use whatever he can to help. It’s the old rob Peter to pay Paul problem. Against my better judgement, I’m driving down Monday for their tech. I’m still gonna try gating them, but I’m wondering if the issue is the stage, the walking, or bad marley.
 
Oh, I really don't like the 30D's for stage use on the floor or edge of the stage. They have a hemispherical pickup pattern (think omni cut in half at the floor) which means you could be getting noise from the house too. Great for pianos, not as much elsewhere. The 160's are super cardioid and definitely have a more "aimed" pattern which makes them a lot better for edge of stage uses. They also tend to give you a little more gain before feedback and better isolation.

Crown has a decent little primer on PCC/PZM
 
Just for the taps? The old "Mic Mouse" from EV might be the ticket.

The PZM/PCC pickup of foot falls can be minimized by using a thin foam (think "mouse pad" from your colleague's desk) under it, but it wont stop the sound... only minimize the physical energy transmission. The signals will need to be high-passed as well, until you get to the tap numbers when it might be useful to back it down a bit to get some "thud" from the stomps. That all said, of the pressure zone mics the 30D is not on my list of helpful mics for tap.
 
Like I said, they usually live in pianos...

I think it’s, like I said, a “well this might work...” scenario. If I had a rack of wireless to loan out, I’d do it, but that wouldn’t solve the tap issue. I’m also wondering if the choir mics he’s using might not be helping. He wasn’t sure when I talked to him about the pattern. Most of my personal mics are recording or instrumental (not loaning 414s out anyway).

What about putting the PZMs on tile, then placing the tile on eggcrate? Keep a “diaphragm“ but isolate it from the floor? I’m just brainstorming.
 
ACTSTech said:
Like I said, they usually live in pianos...

I think it’s, like I said, a “well this might work...” scenario. If I had a rack of wireless to loan out, I’d do it, but that wouldn’t solve the tap issue. I’m also wondering if the choir mics he’s using might not be helping. He wasn’t sure when I talked to him about the pattern. Most of my personal mics are recording or instrumental (not loaning 414's out anyway).

What about putting the PZMs on tile, then placing the tile on egg crate? Keep a “diaphragm“ but isolate it from the floor? I’m just brainstorming.
Click to expand...
@ACTSTech The part of your post I "LIKED" best is you're not loaning your 414's out.
I loaned out my four pristine 1977 C414EB's to a contractor needing them for Papal visit; fortunately they were returned in as loaned condition, and I'm not even Catholic!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
ACTSTech said:
Like I said, they usually live in pianos...

I think it’s, like I said, a “well this might work...” scenario. If I had a rack of wireless to loan out, I’d do it, but that wouldn’t solve the tap issue. I’m also wondering if the choir mics he’s using might not be helping. He wasn’t sure when I talked to him about the pattern. Most of my personal mics are recording or instrumental (not loaning 414s out anyway).

What about putting the PZMs on tile, then placing the tile on eggcrate? Keep a “diaphragm“ but isolate it from the floor? I’m just brainstorming.
Click to expand...

The floor surface boundary is the magic that makes the mic work. As Tim said, you can use something thin to provide some isolation, but it works best not to elevate the mic more than a few millimeters above the floor surface. A high pass filter is a good idea.
 
I understand the concept of the boundary, I’m just trying to overthink and come up with a solution that on paper should never work. Sort of a trial and enormous error session that makes smoke come out of my ears.

The problem, I think, like I said is that it’s trying to use one tool for too many purposes, like when I leave my hammer and screwdriver on the stage so I attempt to use a wrench for everything. Might work out, might fail. If the mic are for the tap numbers, then they really should only be on for the tap numbers.
 
Didn’t need high pass filters, just needed to fix everything...

First off, thank you everyone for the suggestions. The PZMs were working just as advertised, doing an adequate job. Unfortunately, the problem is the stage and the school. The only person “allowed” to hand out microphone and lay marley is the head custodian (contract issue). The marley wasn’t stretched and the “clothing rustle” was actually the marley flapping (poor tape job with black duct tape...). Lowered the hanging mics to 7’ and though the sight of them might be distracting, you can hear much more. Readjusted the choir mics as well, luckily they got two of the same pattern...

The issue wasn’t the microphones, just a poorly run operation. After getting the rundown from the director and tech director, I felt badly that I didn’t do more, but I don’t need a union grievance filed against them.
 
donboomer said:
Glad it’s fixed. However HPFs will help reduce footfall.
Click to expand...
@ACTSTech (and @donboomer ) The HP filter's hinge (tilt) point will be well below any person's vocal range; if you're using your PZM / PCC's for kick drums, pipe organs and contra bass violins, POSSIBLY I'd have concerns with their employment. HP filters for vocal applications; you're wasting your breath and fingers trying to convince me.
Still young enough to learn, too old to change: Somewhat akin to @TimMc
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
donboomer said:
@ron

I guess I‘m not understanding your statement as it seems to contradict itself.
Click to expand...
@donboomer ( copy @ACTSTech ) Possibly I've mis-communicated, maybe I'm subject to interference passing through Mr. Trump's walls; let me try again:
In my mind an HP filter pseudo equates to a Low Cut filter.
I'm postulating the tilt point of most PZM's and / PCC's is low enough to fall well below the voice range of any / all mere mortals. I'm suggesting you can employ any / all PZM and / or PCC High Pass / Low Cut filters with essentially ZERO audible effects upon your desired signals.

Additionally: I'm mentioning, if you are intending to use your PZM / PCC's to record and / or reinforce any bass drums, contra bass violins and / or lower end pipe organ pipes, you could conceivably convince me you can hear some amount of audible degradation of your desired signals.

Have I managed to clarify in spite of Donnie T's walls, or am I spewing anal effluence? @TimMc What say ye?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
donboomer said:
Glad it’s fixed. However HPFs will help reduce footfall
Click to expand...
The problem wasn’t footfall like they thought, the problem was flapping unstretched poorly laid and taped marley. Every time someone stepped in certain places, because of the bubbles, it flapped other places. There weren’t strips of gaff running the entire length of the flooring either, just black duct tape because of “preference and cost”...

Once we took a break, relayed the marley, taped correctly, repositioned the microphones, and swore profusely about the person who had incorrectly set it all up, we had eliminated the footfall and clothing swish without relying on too many effects.
 
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