Microphones Hanging mics

Hello everyone, new guy here looking for some advice. I "volunteer" running sound for a local non profit community theater. We run 4-5 different performances a year. I would like some feedback on installing overhead mics. The stage is approximately 30' deep by 50' wide so with that being said what would be the best type, brand and placement (how many, how far apart and how high above the cast). Like I said this is community theater so I don't have a huge budget but the board of directors has finally listened to me after over two years to spend some money to start updating the sound system. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm looking for a GOOD mic for a decent price. Thanx for your time and any advice would be great.
 
Are these to be used for recording or sound reinforcement?

Hello everyone, new guy here looking for some advice. I "volunteer" running sound for a local non profit community theater. We run 4-5 different performances a year. I would like some feedback on installing overhead mics. The stage is approximately 30' deep by 50' wide so with that being said what would be the best type, brand and placement (how many, how far apart and how high above the cast). Like I said this is community theater so I don't have a huge budget but the board of directors has finally listened to me after over two years to spend some money to start updating the sound system. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm looking for a GOOD mic for a decent price. Thanx for your time and any advice would be great.
 
Also, what is the intent for the mics, is the goal to try to pick up everything on stage or just particular areas or groups? Will these mics be used in combination with handheld, wireless, footlight and other mics or is the thought to use only overhead mics? Are these mics going to be permanent or only in place when needed? What is over the stage and what rigging and other potential conflicts may have to be considered? If for live reinforcement, what is the speaker system and how much 'stage spill' do you get? What are the stage acoustics like? How do you plan to handle these mics as far as cabling and inputs, might there be some related costs in cabling, conduit, etc. that have to be accommodated in your budget? And finally "good mic" and "decent price" are very subjective, do you have any specific budget goal in mind or any particular mics for comparison or consideration?

You might start with looking at this, http://www.shure.com/stellent/group...b_resource/us_pro_al1532_theater_guide_ea.pdf, especially Pages 13 and 14. This addresses some of the common limitations of hanging mics and some of the concepts to apply when using them. Quite frankly, most people seem to have less than desired results with using hanging mics for general pickup. They are often successful for a sort of 'environmental' pickup of ambient noises and for specific groups in fixed locations but don't usually work as well as the primary pickup for a large area with people moving around.
 
Bill, Brad and GPForet, thank you all for your input. Here is some info that you asked about; I'm looking for the best way to handle sound reinforcement for an upcoming performance of 'Titanic The Musical' with a cast of 44 people. We only have 15 wireless mics which are a combination of lavalieres and headset and multiple brands of each and also they are a combination of UHF and VHF. Most cast members have both speaking and singing parts but a few are only chorus singing but are moving around while singing. It is definitely NOT in our budget to purchase or even rent 30 more wireless mics nor is it possible to switch off mics between cast members because a lot of scenes require most of the cast on stage.(plus we all know the percentage of damaging a mic in the middle of a performance when doing so) I thought by using overhead mics I could better balance out the sound especially while all are singing rather than turning down all the wireless cast so that we don't only hear them. Am I on the right track or is there a better way to handle this? As for using hanging mics I know they can't be mounted permanently as we do 'fly' some set pieces in and other rigging issues so they will be relocated for different shows.
Thanks again for your replies. And thank you Brad for the 'Shure mic guide' link it was very helpful!
 
Combining wireless and overhead mics has all sorts of issues, especially the one you highlight, namely that even with overhead mics you are going to be forced to drop the level of the wireless to balance with the overhead

Is it essential that this be mic'ed? I have seen in a lot of community productions that trying to mic some folks and have alternate systems for others totally ruins the performance with dramatic level differences and "perceived" sound where the whole performance starts to sound totally "canned"

It takes a lot of work and a nimble audio person on FOH to keep adjusting things to make it sound natural.

The proper acting projection technique can go a long way AND IMO is essential for overhead mics to work.
Attempts to use a mix of wireless and area mics at the same time is a real challenge

How large is the venue? You could look at boundary mics like the pcc160 across the front of stage.

Is it possible to NOT use any wireless? An array of low end wireless all of varying quality etc can make things worse

Sharyn
 
Hi Sharyn, thanks for the reply, I did forget to mention that the reason we need sound reinforcement is that because our venue is small (only about 200 seats - 12 rows deep and 16 wide) the orchestra, no matter how soft they play, overpowers the vocals.
Do you think that only using overhead mics or using overhead mics in combo with boundary mics is a better solution?
As far as trying to keep a natural sound being a lot of work by being a nimble FOH tech...YES it is and most times I wonder why the #@*% I do it! But most times that stress goes away at the end of the performance when the audience exits out next to the sound booth and they say "Great Job" or "Sounded Fantastic".
Its called making the best with what you have.
 
+1 on the AT U853. Its a nice, natural sounding mic. +1 also on the required nimbleness of board op for balancing overheads (or other area) with rf mics. Phase cancellation is always a concern too (not that it isn't worse with two rf mics in close proximity). I also use downstage boundary mics too but watch for foot noise. I actually made some small (black) wedges for mine so that they would pick up dialog better.
 
...the orchestra, no matter how soft they play, overpowers the vocals.
Throw a carpet over the orchestra:)

Actually, the HS I help out at has a similar problem. Though a larger venue, the pit is very "live", and you can't hear the singers in a musical over the orchestra without amplification. We've discussed a number of solutions for mics so you can hear the chorus, but nothing works well. I'd really like to install carpet in the pit (at least the floor, possibly the walls) but the band teacher won't hear of it, after all to him the orchestra is the most important part.

Not much help, but I will be looking for solutions which might apply to me also.

-Fred
 
As Fred said, the problem with adding overhead mics is that they are likely to just pick up the orchestra and make things work. POSSIBLY the pcc160's might work better since they are directional and theoretically should have rejection from the orchestra that I am guessing would be between the stage and the audience.

This is a common problem, sometimes it is solved via having a proper pit, but in most instances the conductor needs to get the orchestra to play more softly, or get some method of reducing the sound levels.

So you have a pit or are they musicians just sitting on the floor? Some acoustical treatment for the floor and around the Musicians would help also.

I really do think that if you try to just add overheads you will wind up doing a great job of adding the orchestra to your FOH Mix which is exactly what you do NOT want to do.


Sharyn
 
I have found that an orchestra playing overly loud is often a result of them not being able to hear themselves. If the violins can't hear the basses, they tend to play louder assuming the inverse is also true. And if the Conductor cannot hear all the musicians they may try to get them to play louder. A properly designed pit or shell often allows the orchestra to play quieter by supporting ensemble within the group, allowing the musicians to better hear all the other musicians.

Other aspects can be performers not projecting when speaking or singing (which seems to be becoming a lost art) and houses not designed to provide much, if any, natural reinforcement of sound on stage. Of course, the same issue that plagues bands where everyone may have to play up to the level of the one person who just can't seem to play softly can also affect orchestras.


I find that with overhead and footlight mics it helps to keep in mind that a mic will simply pickup the sound at the point where it is located. You can use the mic pattern along with aiming, EQ and other processing to provide some 'intelligence' but in general a mic is dumb, it cannot distinguish between a desired sound and an undesired one or know what is happening, it will simply pickup whatever sound is at that point.

Taking that to the next level, when you have multiple mics picking up the same sources and being mixed together you get signals with common sources but different timing, level, response, etc. for each source that are being combined. Those interactions can result in all sorts of issues from reduced gain before feedback to phasing to affecting the console gain structure. The art is in balancing these potentially negative effects with the gains made by having the microphones. While there are some generalities that can be applied, and that is what the Shure document and other similar references address, the specifics will vary for every venue, event, operator, etc.
 
I didn't read everything just so you know,

We have 6 over head mics. They work great, but I wouldn't suggest them for the only thing that is picking up voices. You'll find that if theirs only a few people on stage and it isn't singing that they will not be heard well. We use 10 Senn. ew100s' (Wireless) and 3 hanging. (Other three are behind midway so they are behind set, so, there off during plays.) and 4 floor mics. Hanging mics are best for just, noise, like the floor mics, and for backround singers.
Not sure the brand of our hanging mics. They arent labled.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back