Hazers vs. Dry Ice--Health Risk

Are smoke machines and/or hazers a health or safety risk?

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Just want to point out that both chemical and C02 fog is completely safe if you don't breathe.

Thanks for the new info and bringing this thread back it's an important topic that needs to recycle occasionally. I think the CO2 is especially important because it's so cool... but it's also easy to loose control of the fog. Newbies often don't realize just how dangerous that could be.
 
gafftaper said:
Just want to point out that both chemical and C02 fog is completely safe if you don't breathe.
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Well beside that also. If you make the fog machine and/or dry ice fill up the room in excess to make the normal balance between O2 and CO2 change so that there is more CO2, there is a problem there.
But otherwise there is no problem with either of them unless the smoke effect from either method sets off the smoke detectors
 
Well, the smoke/fog from lower end "fog machines" can mess with your health and/or vocal performance ability. Just stand in the fog from one for a few minutes and you'll know what I mean...
 
astrotechie said:

Well beside that also. If you make the fog machine and/or dry ice fill up the room in excess to make the normal balance between O2 and CO2 change so that there is more CO2, there is a problem there.
But otherwise there is no problem with either of them unless the smoke effect from either method sets off the smoke detectors
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Yeah there have been lots of problems in the past with low quality chemical fog machines that have created serious long term health effects. Today it's more temporary effects but either way you don't want to try to act in the middle of bad chemical fog. It probably won't kill you any more but it might make you sick for a while. I believe there are very few foggers/hazers that Actor's Equity has endorsed as safe. If you work in an equity house your actors might walk if you use the wrong machine and fluid.

As far as the CO2 it doesn't take as much as you would think. You don't have to alter the balance of CO2/O2 in the room as you suggested. All you need is a normal proscenium stage that sits up above the audience a few feet. Flood the stage real good with dry ice fog and it rolls off the front of the stage and fills the audience or pit. Remember that Co2 fog is more dense and colder than the O2. As it fills that area, it displaces the O2 that's in that area. If you are a little over zealous you can easily fill up those first low rows (or the orchestra pit). With fog. Once it's full of fog... it's also empty of O2... and that's bad.

An even more likely hazard is the actor who "passes out" or "plays dead" on stage in a low lying layer of CO2 fog just might not get back up.
 
I ran across an interesting post on the web a wile back when doing research for our recent poroduction of Metamorphses. It was from a school in Illinois somewhere near Chicago I believe. They < the highschool > were having big issues with using water on stage < don't get me started on that particular point> Anyway they were approached by a local company that specialies in Nitrogen fog systems. apparently they filled thier "pool" with nitrogen fog and then had the kids move in and out of it instead of water. I think it's a great idea and would be a cool effect, but I also can't beleive the school signed off on it as far as saftey considerations are concerned. Too much time under that fog and there would be a bunch of dead highschool actors. Nitrogen fog is Much better at displacing O2 in an area than either co2 fog or chemicalfogs.
 
jwl868 said:
I know its an old thread, but I thought it would be worth keeping the continuity.
I was at the AEA (Actor's Equity) website to see if they had any new safety publications and I found two:
AEA recently updated two documents in February 2007 regarding the use of haze:
Smoke and Haze Testing - Calibration Factors
Smoke and Haze Testing - Time and Distance Guidelines
http://www.actorsequity.org/library/library.asp?cat=33
Joe
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We have been doing a lot of research in the Equity rules on smoke and haze effects here at my theatre in preparation for our production of Les Mis. If I remember correctly, it was the Broadway production of Mis that started a lot of the testing that AEA has been doing. I find it interesting that they make no mention of CO2 fog or of smoke released from pyro.

It is my understanding that unless you are taking your afternoon nap lying on stage in CO2 fog it actually poses less of a health risk than most fog and haze machines. You have to use so much CO2 fog to fill a stage that has a 40' proscenium opening with a release point even 10-15' upstage of plaster. By the time that fog makes it over the lip of the stage it starts dissipating pretty well. I have to assume that if CO2 fog posed any risk to members of a pit orchestra (as it tries to find the lowest point in the theatre) then the musicians union would make some kind of fuss about it, or request hazard pay for working shows with CO2 fog. By the same token, if it posed any risks to the audience I am sure there is some other organization that would make a fuss.
 
it almost seems like the pit is the place to have it go regardless of musicians and then have a separeate ventilation system there to exhaust it out or the pit using a couple of fans and some duct work...
 
OK i may be repeating some of the things that people have already said but here is the big rundown.

OIL BASED HAZE

Oil based haze sets off carbon monoxide alarms, and all new buildings are equipped with carbon monoxide alarms. They haze up sensors in smoke alarms and proximity detectors also. They are just messy all the way around. They also aren't great for your lungs so they should be used moderately. With oil based haze a little goes a long way.

NOW FOR OIL BASED HAZERS
IE... DF50 and some others. They now do make a water based haze for most oil based hazers b/c of pressure from buildings and the health dept.

Water based haze/FOG
Water based haze is basically humidity. Some machines can make a mess if not used properly or if it leaks so any problems should be taken care of to minimize a big mess. Water based fluid is almost impossible to clean up once it is all over the stage. A side effect to excessive water based haze is drying of the mouth, but it would take a bit of haze to cause that.

CO2 Fog (Dry ICE)
One common mistake is when people see low lying fog they immediately assume it is CO2. There are lots of water based low lying foggers on the market these days. When using dry ice you have to use the appropriate amount for the room b/c it is pure CO2 and people cannot breathe CO2 very well. I have never ran into a problem of having someone pass out due to too much dry ice but i have heard first hand stories of people using dry ice in a very confined space. But i would say for the most part if you use some common sense you will be safe.

Now for the complainers.
Water based and oil based haze. When people complain they cannot breathe or are asthmatic that is because of a psychological reaction and not an actual reaction to the smoke.

With CO2 you do have to be a little more careful bc once i did have a kid have an asthma attack.
 
Van said:
Anyway they were approached by a local company that specialies in Nitrogen fog systems. apparently they filled thier "pool" with nitrogen fog and then had the kids move in and out of it instead of water. I think it's a great idea and would be a cool effect, but I also can't beleive the school signed off on it as far as saftey considerations are concerned. Too much time under that fog and there would be a bunch of dead highschool actors. Nitrogen fog is Much better at displacing O2 in an area than either co2 fog or chemicalfogs.
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An important difference between nitrogen and carbon dioxide is that while both gases will displace air and massive quantities of either will cause asphyxiation, carbon dioxide (but not nitrogen) has OSHA concentration limits in air. That is, there is a concentration above which will cause a physical problem, other than asphyxiation. Apparently, there is no maximum nitrogen concentration (other than that which displaces so much air or dilutes out so much oxygen thus causing asphyxiation). (Considering that air is about 79% nitrogen, perhaps this isn’t a surprise.)

Perhaps that is why that pool effect used the liquid nitrogen, although I agree, using it in a confined space like that seems risky and potentially dangerous. No doubt they had a professional system that was fail-safe.

A link for NIOSH’s carbon dioxide information:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0103.html


Joe
 
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