Wireless Help me with antennas for Wireless.

[nestageworks]

Hi Guys
Can someone help me setup Distribution and antennas for my ULX Microphones. I have 8 J1 and 8 M1 (best frequencies for the MA), use wireless workbench to pick channels, but still get dropouts.
I plan to add UA844swb Da's, (in groups of 4) what antennas would work best. When I need more than 16 channels I also use 8 PGx mics which actually seem to have less dropouts (but don't sound nearly as good)
I am also considering adding some ULXD systems. How will this affect the current 16 ULX?
Any thoughts or advise would be appreciated.

 

[Stookeybrd]

Is there a specific spot on the stage that always gets drop outs? Do the antennas have line-of-sight to the transmitters?

If you turn on all of your receivers and none of the transmitters, do you see any LEDs lit on the left side of any of the receivers?

I assume you're currently using the included whip antennas, how far away are your receivers from the transmitters?

If you are going to purchase distros, look into purchasing paddle antennas like the UA874. And if you do that, make sure to purchase quality antenna cable that is 50ohm and not high-loss. Look at cable like RG8 or even better, LMR400. As long you you are properly spacing all of your transmitters to avoid intermodulation, a combination of ULX, PGX and ULXD being used at the same time will never be an issue. Make sure that all of the frequencies in the building are included in your WWB intermodulation check. Wireless com, 2-way radios, assisted listening systems, etc. Wireless is brand agnostic and two pieces of gear cannot utilize the same frequency.

 

[nestageworks]

The equipment is actually a touring setup that I bring into many different venues. Typical shows range from 12-24 mics. The current setup is still using the whip antennas, but yes I would like to add the paddle antennas. I do currently have the receivers mounted 4 to a case, so the antennas are pretty close.

The receivers are typically setup about 75' from stage in straight line of sight. If I do get signal blips with all the transmitters turned off, I usually pick a different channel, but often, as is always the case, they work great during rehearsal then have dropouts during the show. Interesting that I don't seem to ever have issues with the sm58 transmitters, only the body packs--i am wondering if their antennas are weaker. I also seem to have more trouble with women who hide the pack under lots of tight clothes than with men.
My real question is what hardware do I need to make this system work perfectly, and will the addition of da and paddle antennas solve the problems.

I think the plan will be 8 ulx receivers, 2 UA844swb DAs,1 UA221 splitter, and 2 antennas UA874? all in a single boxwith the antennas mounted on stands. Does this plan make sense?

 

[Stookeybrd]

I think the plan will be 8 ulx receivers, 2 UA844swb DAs,1 UA221 splitter, and 2 antennas UA874? all in a single boxwith the antennas mounted on stands. Does this plan make sense?

No. The UA874 is an active antenna(has a small signal amplifier built in) that is fed +15v from a distro, or many receivers. Using the UA221 splitter with two attached distros won't work. What would work is a single UA844 and a single UA845. The UA845 has cascade ports which the 44 will use as inputs and then the 45 will power the antennas.

Interesting that I don't seem to ever have issues with the sm58 transmitters, only the body packs--i am wondering if their antennas are weaker. I also seem to have more trouble with women who hide the pack under lots of tight clothes than with men.

Yes, this is a tell-tale detail of your situation. What is probably happening is that the antennas are touching the women's sweating skin directly (or more so than the men's) and that physical connection is causing a large loss of signal strength. The human body is a terrific insulator of radio frequencies and when there is direct contact with the antenna, it acts more like a sponge. Try and insure that the placement of each actress's pack has at least one fully dry layer of clothing between her and the antenna. With your current distance and antenna set-up it seems like you need every dB you can get from the transmitter, and touching sweating skin or even dry skin will not help your situation. If there are costume restrictions that do not allow for you to change the location of the transmitter, I'd suggest moving the receivers from FOH to the stage where they will have less signal loss over the air.

 

[nestageworks]

No. The UA874 is an active antenna(has a small signal amplifier built in) that is fed +15v from a distro, or many receivers. Using the UA221 splitter with two attached distros won't work. What would work is a single UA844 and a single UA845. The UA845 has cascade ports which the 44 will use as inputs and then the 45 will power the antennas.

Can you confirm that the UA45 is compatible with ULX systems. In the online manual it says that the power ports are not compatible with either ULX or ULXD. Would I need to use it for antenna distro but not power distro?

Also many thanks as I never knew that contact to skin would be an issue. I do protect the packs with baggies or rubbers when they are on dancers, but thought that was for electrical shorts not RF Issues. I hesitate to move the receivers to the stage, as I monitor them to make sure the actors do not turn off their packs, and for troubleshooting issues. Using the active antennas will greatly reduce my problems anyways, Right?

 

[Chris15]

Using the active antennas will greatly reduce my problems anyways, Right?

NO.
Unless you KNOW what you are doing, active antennas create lots more problems than they fix.

RF is brand agnostic, a splitter is a splitter, there's no issue using a Shure splitter with Sennhesier mics or any sort of combination like that. But of course some splitters are of higher quality than others.

BTW, for receive applications usingt passive antennas, there is often better performance to be had by using a 75 ohm coax, RG6 springs to mind, than using 50 ohm coax. For transmitting or active applications, that changes big time (and that also includes between splitters and receivers) but for the run between passive antenna and splitter, 75 will work fine.

 

[Stookeybrd]

Can you confirm that the UA45 is compatible with ULX systems. In the online manual it says that the power ports are not compatible with either ULX or ULXD. Would I need to use it for antenna distro but not power distro?

I have only used the ULX line a few times so if I'm incorrect someone please correct me. The UA845 is entirely cross compatible with any brand or model of wireless receivers, it is simply a unity gain distro. The power ports are +12vdc plugs so that you can power the receiver and the distro from one three-prong plug. You can use it as an antenna distro for the ULX receivers, and continue to use the transformer plugs that came with the receivers. You'll just have to toss a power strip into the 3u rack as well.

Using the active antennas will greatly reduce my problems anyways, Right?

No. Chris said it as well, unless you know why you specifically need to amplify the signal, active paddles are more trouble than they're worth. A LPDA(log-periodic dipole antenna) antenna will provide passive amplification, and help provide a stronger signal to your receivers. Using nearly any other antenna will be superior to the 1/4 wave whips you have at the back of the receivers.

 

[Chris15]

Grr to Shure for dopey use of language.
The power output that's not applicable to ULX is a female IEC on the back panel so you can loop through to the mains supplies on UR4s etc.

But there are 4 12V outputs that the manual neglects to talk about except to say that there is only 1.1A total available.
A ULX receiver is quoted at a current draw of 550mA, so you'd only get 2 on there safely...
Honestly what I'd do is get a 12V 2.5A supply, wire 4 plugs onto it and plug the 4 receivers in that way and if you've gotten a brick rather than a plugpack, wire the end of that into an IEC and into the back of the UA845

... or just use a power board...

 

[nestageworks]

If I am reading this info correctly, then using a passive dipole antenna would be a better solution, and if I do that, then I would not need the 845, but could instead use 2 UA844s (saves a bunch of money as they cost a bit less) and a passive splitter. This would eliminate all my brick transformers, power everything, and split the antenna signals. That said What model antenna would be appropriate at a good cost? With a passive antenna with a cable distance of 10-15' then RG6 would be an appropriate cable for this.

 

[Chris15]

Why not just use a passive paddle like the Shure PA805?

 

[nestageworks]

PA 805 was actually on my original wish list, just trying to get confirmation that everything I planned on would work well together.

 

[TimmyP1955]

Put the receivers just off stage. By putting them 75' out, you are loosing a fair bit of level. Our rack is just off stage, and we're running splitters fed by whips with no troubles. Sometimes cast members enter the scene from the back of the house (about 75') and there's no troubles - though there's never more than a couple of mics - if the whole cast were back there, it might be a different story.