In search of a new, small lighting console

TO ALL OF MY FELLOW LIGHTING TECHNICIANS!

I am looking to replace 2 LP612s with a newer console that is easy to use and does not cost more than $5,000. I need this replacement console to be able to run at least 15 LEDs individually along with a 6k conventional rig. Please let me know your thoughts on this and what consoles you recommend.

Thank you!

:p
 
By 6 K rig I am guessing you have 6000 watts of fixtures (20 or 30 total?) I am also going to recommend the Element. While Avolites doesn't make bad stuff, you just don't see it as often as the ETC EOS Family of consoles. The Element is extremely easy for designers who have no or little experience with EOS Family products, but some knowledge of Express(ion) and Obsession family consoles, to utilize some of the more advanced programming features because they are so easily accessed and utilized. It can easily handle 15 LED fixtures. Each one can simply be addressed to its own unique address and then programmed as its own channel in the board. You can get either 250 or 500 board channels. Additionally, you have either 40 or 60 submaster/channel faders, with up to 300 recordable submasters.

Of the the last 7 designers I've worked with, 2 have had extensive EOS Family experience, 1 has worked extensively with the EOS family but not in designing or programming on one, 2 have had extensive Express(ion) and Obsession Experience and 2 were primarily Strand/HOG users. The 2 with extensive EOS Family Experience swear by them, the 1 is taking ETC training on the EOS Family, the 2 with other ETC Product experience thoroughly enjoyed designing on the EOS Family and the 2 Strand/HOG users love the EOS Family. The one Obsession II user is seriously considering the Element to replace it....but realizes that with the number of moving light/LED fixtures they use the additional keys and integrated touchscreens of the Gio would be a better fit.

It is a popular family of consoles that keeps getting better with software updates.
 
2nd on the ETC Element or consider the ETC Smartfade ML depending on what your are doing with it.

TO ALL OF MY FELLOW LIGHTING TECHNICIANS!

I am looking to replace 2 LP612s with a newer console that is easy to use and does not cost more than $5,000. I need this replacement console to be able to run at least 15 LEDs individually along with a 6k conventional rig. Please let me know your thoughts on this and what consoles you recommend.

Thank you!

:p
 
No love for the small Jands stuff?

Totally scalable from 256 to infinite channels.
And less than half of your budget for a M1 and a laptop.
 
No love for the small Jands stuff?

Totally scalable from 256 to infinite channels.
And less than half of your budget for a M1 and a laptop.

Don't forget you need a dongle to actually output anything to the rest of the system.
 
No love for the small Jands stuff?
Totally scalable from 256 to infinite channels. ...
Guessing you're speaking of the Jands Vista? Seems to be a love-it-or-hate-it situation, with most falling into the latter. I'd enjoy seeing a side-by-side, apples to oranges, cost and features, comparison to Chamsys MagicQ. If avilicious is open to considering a Vista system, there's at least one I believe in the state of CO. For a multitude of reasons, I'd rather buy something there's lots of, when selecting a console.

[-]
... And less than half of your budget for a M1 and a laptop.
Perhaps I missed it, but I don't see anyone here recommending a ~$16,000 Martin M1 (and would seriously question anyone who would recommend same for a rig consisting of "at least 15 LEDs individually along with about 10 source 4s").[/-]

EDIT: Oops!:oops: That's highly perturbing having two products in the lighting control market with similar/the exact same name.:evil:
Vista M1 Control Surface « Jands Vista
Product - M1™
FWIW, I notice the Martin product has a ™ symbol after its name.
 
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So far I'm leaning towards the Strand 200 Plus Series console. Has anyone had any experience programming it? In reality, how easy is it to layer LEDs, moving lights, and conventionals? If it is anything like High End's power cue I want nothing to do with it.

If I had things my way, I would go with a grand MA pico, but budget constraints makes that an unrealistic option. ETCs smartfade might also be a viable option as well... Any opinions?
 
I looked up the 200+, and it looks a little clunky to me. I'd like to play with one in person sometime.

I'm doing the same sort of research for my church. Currently have a Mantrix/2 driving dimmers through a pair of proto converters, but looking to revamp the rig with 10 or so LEDs on the band. Of course running LEDs on the Mantrix would be an exercise in anger management. :)

I'm looking strongly at the Smartfade/ML for the church. Good features, good "normal-person" UI. Reasonably cheap. I never thought I'd be seriously considering a Smartfade series board (I remember wanting to like the first Smartfade but not being able to because it was more DJ-board than theatre-board) -- but now, here I am with ML in the lead.

My first thoughts were that the ideal board for this would be a Vision with newer I/O (storage, monitor) and that understood color-mixers (i.e., the 'channel' and 'attribute' concepts of newer boards like Palette and Ion), maybe with a couple of encoders. The Ion is pretty but expensive, and normal people (volunteers) don't know theatre-board programming and operation. I was pleasantly surprised that the SF/ML seems to fit this bill pretty well.
 
Don't forget you need a dongle to actually output anything to the rest of the system.

The Price I was quoted was less than $2k with a 512ch dongle.

Guessing you're speaking of the Jands Vista? Seems to be a love-it-or-hate-it situation, with most falling into the latter. I'd enjoy seeing a side-by-side, apples to oranges, cost and features, comparison to Chamsys MagicQ. If avilicious is open to considering a Vista system, there's at least one I believe in the state of CO. For a multitude of reasons, I'd rather buy something there's lots of, when selecting a console.

Yes Jands Vista,

I cannot speak to the Chamsys stuff and ease of use. But I have only used a few bottom end controllers (freekie, show designer etc.) but I love the vista. What used to take 10-12 hours with half of the fixtures now takes 2 hours.

I was watching a LD at a Megachurch changing some programming on a HOG and and it looked like he was running an adding machine. Type in 10 numbers, hit enter. Type in 10 more numbers, hit enter. I was wondering if he was a LD or an accountant figuring out compound interest. I made the same changes with just a few mouse clicks.

I was at another church that had a GrandMA. The LD was trying to find something (group, chase, something) and was going through pages on one of the 2 or 3 touch screens. Again I have a quick picker. Done.

The Jands stuff may not fit in every situation, heck it may not fit in most, but where it fits it is an amazing product.

I am a TD of a "Megachurch" (on the bottom end of that description) and as the only production staff person, I cannot take an hour to make a change to a cue list. It has to be quick and easy, and I need to be able to teach a 12 year old to run it. Jands Vista hits all of those marks for me. Not only that but I taught my self to run it in a day.
 
I love the jands vista. It is easy to use and very fast to navigate. I agree with the layers of stuff on the grandma you end up spending several hours just setting the console up the way you like it. It takes me less than 5 min on a hog or vista. I can program them equally as fast. When people do not know how to setup their hog properly there is a bit of typing involved but no more than any other console.
 
So far I'm leaning towards the Strand 200 Plus Series console. Has anyone had any experience programming it? In reality, how easy is it to layer LEDs, moving lights, and conventionals? If it is anything like High End's power cue I want nothing to do with it.

If I had things my way, I would go with a grand MA pico, but budget constraints makes that an unrealistic option. ETCs smartfade might also be a viable option as well... Any opinions?

Don't get the 200+. It's not a Strand product, actually. Look at the Elation TRIO series of controllers - same exact thing. It's something that you do not want to attempt to program on.

Given the 5K budget I'd be looking at the ETC Element. It should come in around $4300 + tax, and then you'll just need a monitor or two from your favorite computer store (or ones you already have) to make it happen.

If you intend to not ever work with movers but only with LEDs and conventionals, I think that a Smartfade ML would make a decent desk and you'd have no problem layering the conventionals & LEDs. If you're adding movers to the mix, the SFML is still a viable console, just not quite as much I think. The selective recording features are nice, but it doesn't have indexed values of encoder control (the faders are the main method of controlling moving light parameters) - and by that I mean you don't have an encoder that steps to gobos or colors on a wheel or settings on a control channel. It's all numeric and continuous so that can be quite a hassle. The lack of a monitor display can also be irksome, although this is largely alleviated with the option of running SmartSoft live. The number of palettes (24 per type) can also be limiting. All of that being said, it is the best moving light desk in the $2K range, IMO.

Other things to investigate, and definitely do a fair bit of research in to each of these:

Zero88 Jester ML (24 or 48) and the Jester TLXtra. These all have a monitor out standard, the featureset seems quite nice, and programming seems straightforward. I'd probably want a sidecar console (regular Jester 12/24?) in to the DMX input to control conventionals and primarily use the ML or TLX for movers/LEDs.

Zero88 Solution - the newly rebranded Leap Frog 48 from Zero88, this is nothing like the old one if anything that I've read is correct. The new operating system is quite different and has a lot of improvements. Same software as their Orb desk and the Frog 2 as well now. Looks like a good range with good software.

SGM Pilot 3000 - touchscreen, playback faders, executor buttons, compact, and it programs like a real console. I was surprised to learn about this desk and mess around on it for a little bit, it's really a powerhouse given its size & price. The executor buttons are quite nice, especially give their quantity for a desk this size. Limited faders, you'd probably want a sidecar in the form of a Jester or Smartfade (not ML) that has a DMX input.

Things not to get:

Leprecon LPX or LPC. The LPX can be alright with a touchscreen and given time to figure it out, but it's still a hassle. I use one every weekend so I'd know. I've heard from several people who have used several LPC consoles that they're prone to crashing. I also know from spending a short amount of time on one that they're just as much of a hassle to program as the LPX.

Strand 200+, Elation Trio, Elation ShowDesigner. Just don't. Save yourself from having to destroy the console with a sledge hammer when you get too frustrated with it.
 
Don't get the 200+. It's not a Strand product, actually. Look at the Elation TRIO series of controllers - same exact thing. It's something that you do not want to attempt to program on.

That explains why I don't like it (admittedly, I've only read the manual, but still). It feels like a clunky DJ board because it is one.

If someone (Strand, ETC) would take a console like Mini Light Palette or Vision and modernize it, I bet it would sell if the price point was right. Not completely applicable to a ML situation, or even color-mixers necessarily, but for conventionals I'd love something compact with a keypad, a wheel, a playback or two, 10 or fewer faders, and outputs for a display or two. Something smaller than Element. But I'm probably dreaming with that one.
 
That explains why I don't like it (admittedly, I've only read the manual, but still). It feels like a clunky DJ board because it is one.

If someone (Strand, ETC) would take a console like Mini Light Palette or Vision and modernize it, I bet it would sell if the price point was right. Not completely applicable to a ML situation, or even color-mixers necessarily, but for conventionals I'd love something compact with a keypad, a wheel, a playback or two, 10 or fewer faders, and outputs for a display or two. Something smaller than Element. But I'm probably dreaming with that one.

That's almost the Zero88 Jester TLXtra. Check it out. Syntax ain't perfect, but it's pretty darn good and wouldn't take that long to figure out. It even does movers! Zero88 has really gotten their act together recently, which is why I find myself recommending these consoles.
 
I 2nd everything SoundLight said, except for recommending any Zero88 product, that's a dumb suggestion. I put a leap frog into a music venue and it was crap. I mean don't get me wrong, the customer service they had was great for fixing their problems, but I'd rather just not have the issues to begin with, ya know?

So really, get a smart fade. Or an element if you want a keypad.
 
I 2nd everything SoundLight said, except for recommending any Zero88 product, that's a dumb suggestion. I put a leap frog into a music venue and it was crap. I mean don't get me wrong, the customer service they had was great for fixing their problems, but I'd rather just not have the issues to begin with, ya know?

So really, get a smart fade. Or an element if you want a keypad.

Isn't that generalization akin to putting an Express on a U2 tour and then saying ETC is crap? ;)

Or was it a lemon board? Still though, Zero88 makes more than just the Leap Frog. All I know is, a Zero 88 saved me from having to use an ADJ Stage Setter on a show once. That was good enough for me. :)
 

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