Info for Fixtures Similar to Mac 2000 Profile spot

[jdsilverm]

Hey everyone. I am so excited to post my first question! I have been lurking and reading/learning for the past few weeks and I am so grateful for all the people who have shared so much information. This is truly a great resource.

I am the Director of Creative Worship and Media at a large church in Southwest Florida. We have a decent ETC Express 250 system with lots of conventional fixtures and some LED pars.

We have been doing a huge Christmas Pageant every year and we rent 26 moving fixtures, a console to handle movers, more conventionals, etc. Well, now that I've been here about a year, I have decided that instead of renting $20000 worth of equipment each year, we will invest in some stuff permanently to be able to use it year-round (duh!). So, we are looking at getting a Martin M1 console, we have already ordered some moving fixtures, and also have 4 Mac 300 washed on our truss right above the stage we just got. We have been looking at used equipment since our budget is obviously not too huge.

Here's my question: we usually rent 6 Mac 2000 Profile/spot fixtures each year to hang in the sky because the ceiling is so high. I would say approximately 60-70ft. Obviously, the Mac 2000s work great, but even used they are still expensive (for good ones). And, they have been known to be a little finicky for us in the past. Does anyone have a good recommendation of any other fixtures with some similar specifications that would be able to get a really good throw? I have been reading tons of online threads and forums and I can't seem to get info. Plus, so many manufacturers have confusing and sometimes bloated specs, and I would appreciate any real-world advice. I know there are Vari-lite and other manufacturers who make 1200W or equivalent fixtures, but I am still confused on what older models in particular might be good since we will consider used gear.

Thanks in advance for your time. I am excited to get into this new and exciting realm!

Jeremy

 

[SteveB]

The other "big" brand is Varilite, usually the 3000 series. Then there are Elation, Clay Paky and Robe fixtures. I think most of these companies make a 208v/1200 watt fixture. I listed VariLite ahead of the others as they and Martin are the better known and more likely to be rented companies. As example, I'm in the NYC area and there is nobody renting Robe locally, which amazed me. To demo one I was going to have a unit shipped from Florida.

So the questions:.

- Martin is generally considered a very reliable fixture all around, what did you find "finicky" and was that a result of being a rental unit ?.

- Do you have sufficient and permanent 208v power available ?, as any fixture at that height is going to be (as you've discovered) a 1200 or brighter unit. like a MAC III. No choice, no problem is the situation here. You won't be saving any money buying a less bright fixture that won't punch.

- Martin and Varilite units tend to be pricier then Robe and Elation, but also tend to be more reliable. Clay Paky is not cheap, so you'd only be buying for the feature set.

- Do you need to duplicate the imaging and effects of the MAC 2K ?, or can you swap to a different looking fixture ?.

- Do you do ALL the repairs in house ? or need access to a local shop ?. What do they use and what can they repair ?. If you buy Clay Paky, as example, and need the local shop to fix it, can they ?, or do you need to purchase 1 or 2 spares and what does that do to the budget ?

And not for nothing, but if you are only needing and using the fixtures once a year, why are you buying ?. 26 fixtures is a ton of cash to lay out ($250,000 - $300,000 ?), including control, power and data distro. Sometimes it's more cost effective to keep renting.

 

[rochem]

First of all, welcome to CB! As Steve said, the other largest moving light manufacturer is Vari-Lite. Assuming you were getting Mac 2000 Profiles, the rough VL "equivalent" is the VL3000, while the VL3500 is basically the equivalent of a Mac 2000 Performance. What house do you rent your gear from? If you do intend to buy, having a local shop that can do repairs or provide spare parts is invaluable. Do you specifically know which Mac 2K you had? If it had shutters, it was a Performance, and your product of choice would be the VL3500. Honestly, I don't know of any other manufacturers that have reliable longer-throw units like that, unless you want to count PRG's Bad Boy - although that's incredibly cost-prohibitive, and you can't actually purchase one anyway, so it's a moot point.

I'd agree with Steve that this still doesn't sound like a situation where you'd want to buy that many fixtures. If you have a good relationship with a good shop, they will rush out a part/replacement/service tech to you as soon as you call them with a problem. Even if you do have someone on site who is very knowledgeable about repairing and maintaining that fixture, there are many issues that can't be fixed without having a specific spare part on hand. As a point of reference, many large national tours travel with a Moving Light Tech (usually the 1st Ass't Electrician) who is responsible for repairs, as well as having ~2 spare fixtures of each type on the truck. But even they end up sending fixtures back to the shop at least once every few weeks, because of not having the appropriate parts or the ability/time to make certain repairs.

As example, I'm in the NYC area and there is nobody renting Robe locally, which amazed me. To demo one I was going to have a unit shipped from Florida.

Not entirely true. What fixtures/quantity were you looking for?

Martin is generally considered a very reliable fixture all around, what did you find "finicky" and was that a result of being a rental unit ?.

I'm curious about this as well. Also, if you put in a call to the shop to advise them of the problem, they should either walk you through a solution or send you a replacement unit right away.

...a 1200 or brighter unit. like a MAC III.

DON'T get a Mac III. Do yourself a favor. Just don't do it.

 

[soundlight]

In my experience, MAC2000s are finnicky in general. Mainly due to a couple of things: 1, the power supply likes to toast itself. 2, the color mixing system, due to its design and size, is much more likely to mess up than a V*L colormixing system (sliding glass in guides with belts is much more finnicky than simply rotating a glass disc). That's the main issues that I find, but I occasionally also see an issue with a 2K that just makes me wonder where it came from...

Then again, I also see a lot of issues with V*Ls. However, more often than not they are quick, inexpensive fixes like tightening a belt or replacing a driver chip.

If you're going for used units, definitely look at age, use history and where they're coming from. You're looking for units no more than 6 years old probably that have a corporate or similar history, you don't want fixtures that have been toured to death, halfway rebuilt and then sent out to you. You should also make sure you have a 30 day warranty or more on the fixtures so that when you get them in, the seller or the broker is required to get you parts to make the fixtures operable if they fail within the first 30 days. In the 1200 watt range, there're Vari*Lite VL3000s, Martin MAC2000s, Robe Colorspot 1200E ATs, and Clay Paky Alpha Spot 1200s that would be worth looking at, with the VL3000s and MAC2000s being standard. In my personal experience VL3000s are more stable, but that varies from fixture to fixture with age.

Also, rochem, why do you say no MAC IIIs? I've found Martin's newer designs to be more stable than some of their old stuff, but I have not had hands on experience with a MAC III yet.

 

[rochem]

Also, rochem, why do you say no MAC IIIs? I've found Martin's newer designs to be more stable than some of their old stuff, but I have not had hands on experience with a MAC III yet.

I don't want to trash a reputable manufacturer's product too much here, but while I LOVE the Mac 2K series, the Mac III is just not a well-constructed light. For the last three months, I've been working at a lighting shop outside of New York that supplies most of broadway, and everyone in the department despises these lights. While I didn't work directly with them as much as some other people in the department, they seem to be built quite cheaply and fail more often than any other fixture we send out. Much of the external hardware doesn't stand up to even the lightest abuse (being taken out of cases). The internal air flow is just not very up to par with other fixtures, and the lamp will cut out due to a heat sensor without any apparent reason why - and it's not consistent across all fixtures either. Components of the fixture actually start to deform on a regular basis because of the heat generated by the lamp, even when heat sensors aren't tripping. There's one broadway show out now that only uses about 8 of these lights, and we still end up getting one back every week. They've even sent ML techs out to the venue, and I believe they keep a fully-stocked parts package on-site there to hopefully cut down on the number of service swaps needed. Compare that to one of the numerous shows we have out with 75+ M2Ks, where we get one back from each show probably twice a month, if that.

By no means am I sworn off of the fixtures. My opinion could very well be unfairly biased, as I've had a very limited exposure to the fixture outside of the shop. I'm also not sure exactly where they fit in the market. What are they trying to compete with exactly? Is it intended as a large venue fixture (Bad Boy), or is it trying to be a powerful theatrical workhorse (Mac 2K, VL3500)? I've only used them as an end user for one show, so I really don't know what about it would make designers choose that fixture over a M2K/VL3K.

 

[jdsilverm]

WOW! Thanks everyone for some fantastic information and answers.

For the most part, we have found the 2Ks to be finicky probably due to being a rental unit. I only have one show to go on (last year's Christmas Pageant), but 2 out of the 10 2Ks that we rented had issues almost out of the road case, and another had to be taken out mid-show series. So, probably a rental house issue.

We rent from a company in Miami that we have been using for a while. Due to above issues I would be shy to mention their name. From what I hear, they are a nice company with fair prices, and they have sent replacement fixtures immediately anytime one failed, but from what I'm reading on this site, they might be sending out beat-up fixtures more often than not.

Yes, we have the power infrastructure in the ceiling. As I said, they have been renting for many, many years. We have the infrastructure! We would probably not do our own in-house servicing, but as I mentioned, we have a good relationship with a shop nearby and this one in Miami.

No, no need to specifically duplicate any features of the 2K. Nothing there that we desperately need, except the long-distance throw!

So, it sounds like the Vari-lite 3000 or 3500 would also suffice. But not much else. Yeah, you are all saying it sounds like we might not want to purchase that many lights. I am seeing this trend! I will take that back to my team and let us talk about that for a while. We already have some Mac 300 washes we have purchased and we have 10 Mac 250s coming in and those will be on-stage and on our truss right above the stage. But as for these long-throw lights, we may stay with the rental paradigm.

Thanks again, everyone. What a blessing!

Jeremy

 

[SteveB]

Not entirely true. What fixtures/quantity were you looking for?

I was trying to demo a Martin MAC700, VariLite 2500 and a Robe ColorSpot 700 AT. 3 of the shops I deal with, PRG, 4Wall and Lights Up only had either the Martin or VariLite. I called Robe US direct and confirmed that I could not (at the time - 9/2010) get a 700 AT in NY and that they could ship from Florida.

That told me that I could not get a rental replacement if one of mine went in for service and that I would need to buy a spare. I had read and heard very good things about the Robe units, but.......

We demo'd the MAC 700 and VL2500 and chose the Martin.

 

[TimMiller]

There is lots of clay paky support in new York. A while back we did a huge shoot out between manufactures. Mac 2k was at the bottom. Coemar and robe was up top. We had to get some clay packys from a rental shop and they were not in top shape. We would have had Highend systems gear out there but at the time the xspot was their baby and it was so blown out of the water it was ridiculous. Personally the easiest gear in the world to service is highends. There are no belts except on pan and tilt. Everything is easy to break down and service. My least favorite to repair is vari light. I rate it with repairing American DJ. Extremely time consuming to repair anything. Clay pakys newer fixtures are easy to work on and all of the parts they use are top notch.