Looking for some Distribution Advice

[Vincent A Sanchez]

Hello All. Brand new to these forums, even though I've looked up a few useful answers hear in the past.

Now to my question.

I've been looking at different ways to distribute power around my venue (think similar to a small conference center.)

I really like the idea of these Lex Distributors:
http://www.lexproducts.com/products...bento-box-with-tail-input-to-nema-receptacles

In that it takes 3 phase 30 AMP power and gives 6 Edison Outlets. I like the idea that they can be fed by a single high end cable and then further split into 6 edisons.

However, there is a chance this gear may also get rented or borrowed for other uses, so supplying the 30 AMP 3 Phase would be a little tricky.

I thought the easy solution would be to find a Panel fed Distro that takes, say 200 AMP Power and can give me say 6 30 AMP 3Phase plugs. There in lies the problem, I can't find a Panel Fed Distro that Outputs 30 AMP 3 Phase.

Am I approaching the whole concept of the 30AMP 3 Phase the wrong way?


Also, this is sort of a secondary question, but can anyone point me in the direction of some good resources for working with Panel fed 3 Phase Power? I can't seem to find some good resources.
A basic question I have is say, if you have 2 distros that are 200AMP Panel fed, can they both be hooked up to 400 AMP? or do you have to hook them up to 200 AMP and makes sure together they don't exceed 200. Can you hook one 200 AMP source to 400 Amp?

Thanks.

 

[derekleffew]

I thought the easy solution would be to find a Panel fed Distro that takes, say 200 AMP Power and can give me say 6 30 AMP 3Phase plugs. There in lies the problem, I can't find a Panel Fed Distro that Outputs 30 AMP 3 Phase.

I'm sure Lex could supply this; would be similar to http://www.lexproducts.com/products...amp-3-phase-hammerhead-to-locking-receptacles .

Or here's one that offers more varied outputs: http://www.dadcopowerandlights.com/index.php/twist-lock-distro-/ . In fact, spending some time on the DADCO site should prove educational. And they're nearer to you than Lex.

Another option is NuTech Power. The CLEAR VIEW 200 (CV-200-EXPO-2) is a 200A input/8x L21-30 output device.

Lots of great debate as to whether to standardize on L21-20 or L21-30 as your primary cable.

 

[Senorfish]

Hey Vincent,
I'll try to answer your questions best I can, but this is in no way final advice, only a starting point to help you understand what's going on. You'll need to discuss specific plans with a dealer or rental house Master Electrician to cross check compatibility and safety.
First off, check out this manufacturer. InduElectric. Top end stuff, rubberized housings, water avoid-ant architecture, high quality breakers and workmanship. They make gear for Hollywood and Disney and you name it. Can't go wrong. Lex is also great though I think Indu maybe has more options and (custom) made options for you. Plus they have a shop in Burbank that you can visit.
http://www.indu-electric.com/catalog/
Second, we have to clarify and use the correct terminology. I'm going to copy and past your questions and put my answers in italics. [Edit by Mod.: Post edited/formatted for clarity--too much italics is hard to read.]

"In that it takes 3 phase 30 AMP power and gives 6 Edison Outlets. I like the idea that they can be fed by a 3 phase 30 amp Twist Lock cable and then further split into 6 edisons.

However, there is a chance this gear may also get rented or borrowed for other uses, so supplying the 30 AMP 3 Phase would be a little tricky.

I guess you could say that, someone would have to know how to plug in Twist Lock cables, but it's not too difficult. Personally I would consider 30amp Twist lock relatively safe, as opposed to the bigger distros discussed below which are not safe for unqualified/rental users.

I thought the easy solution would be to find a Panel fed 5 Wire 3 phase Cam Lok Distro that takes, say 200 AMP Power and can give me say 6x 30 AMP 3Phase Twist Lock. There in lies the problem, I can't find a Panel FedDistro that Outputs 30 AMP 3 Phase.

Check out Indu Electric. I didn't have time to browse the whole catalogue today, but 018 Cube series model distro looks along the lines of what you're thinking.

Am I approaching the whole concept of the 30AMP 3 Phase the wrong way?

I'm not sure yet, but let's first try to straighten out the terminology. Your panel will have to be a 3 phase panel. It will have to have a 5 wire 3 phase Cam Lock output if you are doing anything in the larger amperage ranges (100-400amps). Then you'll have to run 5 wire's of camlok of sufficient guage to most likely an intermediary distro device that will then feed your end devices. By the way.... what are you trying to run power for?

Also, this is sort of a secondary question, but can anyone point me in the direction of some good resources for working with Panel fed 3 PhasePower? I can't seem to find some good resources.

Certain rental house people, master electricians and such can clarify things for you. Entertainment power is different than residental or most of NEC. Maybe there's a book out there, I don't know.

A basic question I have is say, if you have 2 distros that are 200AMP Panel fed, can they both be hooked up to 400 AMP?

Um, this needs clarification on a couple levels. Do you mean using two seperate 200amp panels to "sum' together and feed one 400 amp load? No you cannot, not safe, loads must be protected by a single breaker. Having two seperate breakers/panels feeding one load is unsafe because you're depending on both breakers to trip similtaneously, and there are a lot of other technical and non technical reasons like hard to remember you're dealing with two power switches essentially. Do you mean using one 400amp 3 phase 5 wire Cam Lock panel to feed two seperate 200amp 3 phase loads? Yes you can, and it is wise to have an intermediate distro box provide 2 individual 200amp breaker protected circuits so that if one of your 200 amp loads has a problem, it will trip it's own 200amp breaker protection. This type of device appears on the homepage of Indu electric, but not in the catalogue (I was just inquiring with them the other day about such a distro. They make it. The cheap way people do it is with T connectors, I don't recommend doing that. Call InduElectric and have them send you the spec sheet for that type of quality distro to match the individual loads.

or do you have to hook them up to 200 AMP and makes sure together they don't exceed 200.

I'm getting a little confused but I think i answered this above.

Can you hook one 200 AMP source to 400 Amp?

Not the best idea, but it will work up to the 200amp limit. If your source is 200amps, and you have a 400amp load on it, that source breaker or fuse is going to pop when you reach 200amps. And you're relying on the quality or lack of quality of that 200amp source breaker/fuse. Much better to drop a distro box in there with a precise and fast breaker set to 200amps or smaller amperage breaker THAT MOST CLOSELY MATCHES the intended load of the device so that your source/panel is protected as well as YOUR PERSON.

Not sure if you're thinking of this... but let's consider a 3 phase 5 wire Cam Lock 200amp Feeder Panel (source/line). What you get is the ability to use 3x 200amps. In other words, each phase supplies 200amps on it's own. So 600 amps total. That's a lot of power.

Last disclaimer I'm going to make for you, ALL CIRCUITS MUST BE DENERGIZED AT THE SUPPLY PANEL ANYTIME BEFORE YOU ARE CONNECTING AND DISCONNECTING YOUR SUPPLY AND LOAD DEVICES. CONNECTING 3 PHASE 5 WIRE CAM LOCK CIRCUITS WHILE ENERGIZED COULD RESULT IN DEATH. ALSO IMPROPER CONNECTION OF 5 WIRE CAM LOK COLOR CODED CABLES COULD RESULT IN DEATH. THIS IS NOT EQUIPEMENT TO "HAND OUT" TO AN UN EXPERIENCED VENUE RENTING END USER.

Smaller 30amp Twist Lock type cabling/distros may be safer depending on your intended use. What is your intended use?

 

[derekleffew]

Certain rental house people, master electricians and such can clarify things for you. Entertainment power is different than residental or most of NEC. Maybe there's a book out there, I don't know.

In fact there are two recommended books, besides the NEC itself, but neither speak in depth specifically to your issues (as best I can recall).

Set Lighting Technician's Handbook: Film Lighting Equipment, Practice, and Electrical Distribution by Harry C. Box. For the Film/TV industry.

Electricity for the Entertainment Electrician & Technician by Richard Cadena. More information than anyone should ever know about power for entertainment.

As Mr. @Senorfish stated, "Certain rental house people, master electricians and such can clarify things for you."
When in doubt, consult a qualified professional in person.
Unfortunately, the Internets IS NOT a good way to learn about electricity.

 

[Scenemaster60]

I will second Derek's recommendation of Electricity for the Entertainment Electrician & Technician by Richard Cadena. I bought it earlier this summer and it made for a truly fascinating read.

Also, you're in LA. There have got to be people around that are pros in this field that you could get in touch with regarding this issue. I know pretty much exactly the three or four folks I would call right off the bat here in the Twin Cities, there must a couple of dozen out there.

 

[Reggie]

The Harry Box book is not the place to lean about power distribution.

 

[MikeJ]

Those Breakout boxes you posted are pretty common and work well. Some have a L21-30(30 amp 3phase twist) pass through to string together more boxes. Motion labs makes similar boxes in rack mount(so does lex).

The type of distro you are asking about can be found here. http://www.motionlabs.com/c-11-max-pac.aspx
It has Cam in and out with (6) 21-30 outlests. These are 200A units, and yes, using 4/0 feeder you can jump 2 of these together on a 200 amp service. 400A power->Maxpac cam in, then Maxpac Cam through-> second Maxpac.

These are an nice item, but try not to be shocked when you see the price tag.

 

[MikeJ]

A basic question I have is say, if you have 2 distros that are 200AMP Panel fed, can they both be hooked up to 400 AMP? or do you have to hook them up to 200 AMP and makes sure together they don't exceed 200. Can you hook one 200 AMP source to 400 Amp?

To clarify, in my last post, I was assuming you have a 400 service. In that case (2) 200 amp distros can be used from that one service. Most PDs have cam pass through, and most are bused for a 400 amp load, this is the max that cam-lock is rated for. It is best to make sure the cams are bused for a full 400 amps.

If you have two separate 200a services, you must keep them separate, using different PDs on each one. This is often done to separate lighting and audio, so the potential for noise problems in minimized.

 

[Vincent A Sanchez]

Thank you all for the answers, I feel like I understand the subject better. Thank you for the book recommendation as well, I've had those on my wishlist for a while. And thank you for the link to exactly what I was looking for, a 200 Amp fed distro that feeds those 30amp 3 phase units. I now also understand the bussing, that those units are rated for 400 amp on the pass through, thus allowing 2 to be used. It seems to me that having the 2 200 amp units is more flexible, since they can be hooked up to a single 400 amp panel, or deployed on different 200 amp panels.

 

[Wood4321]

Thank you all for the answers, I feel like I understand the subject better. Thank you for the book recommendation as well, I've had those on my wishlist for a while. And thank you for the link to exactly what I was looking for, a 200 Amp fed distro that feeds those 30amp 3 phase units. I now also understand the bussing, that those units are rated for 400 amp on the pass through, thus allowing 2 to be used. It seems to me that having the 2 200 amp units is more flexible, since they can be hooked up to a single 400 amp panel, or deployed on different 200 amp panels.

Remember though, if you are using the pass through, you need to make sure you purchase 4/0 for feeding the first disto. (I actually would prefer if both runs were 4/0 to avoid confusion)

 

[Reggie]

The plastic and rubber end panels on the Bento boxes break easily. Be certain you buy the "new" style from Lex or their dealer. Haven't seen them yet, but Lex told me, "New and improved".