Making just a few $$$ ??

[journeymanjohn]

Over about the last year, I have slowly been buying the equipment to build a little rig. Been shopping for what I beleive to be good values, pretty much knowing that this would be for fun and artistic release, rather than for money. Still,... I would like to think there will be a few dollars in it somewhere.

Anyway, a good buddy of mine turned me on to a club where the band (which he is in) was playing totally in the dark. Apparently, the bands that bring in a few lights of there own often trip the breaker to the only 15a duplex recepticle on stage...killing power to the amps and all. There was also a mirror hanging, at about a 30 degree angle. The owner had set up some sort of light ( I never saw it) that the customers complained were blinding them in the said mirror.

Anyway, I checked the place out.... about a 12' x 7' performance area, in a knook in the corner. Typical 8-9' drop ceiling. The whole bar was dimly lit.

Anyway, the next time the particular band played there. I grabbed two peices of 6" x 5' triangle truss, seven par 16 cans w/ 50w halogens, some cabling and gels, and headed down to the bar.

After getting permission from the owners, it took me MAYBE an hour to get it hung. Simple warm / cool cross and a single spot with two diffusion gels on the front man (just a three piece that night). A nice quick, clean, low profile, low wattage install. We hung an American flag in front of the mirror, even though my angles weren't causing any reflective glare.

As I am hanging , the bar owner tells me he needs to buy something like this, and wants to know what it would cost him. I hadn't even thought about what I would sell the stuff for (heck, i just got it, and besides... my plan was to work up a show with a band, for the local circuit), and wasn't really sure what the stuff would cost NEW, so I just played it off, and said lets just get it lit for now, and we'll see how it all goes. (I mean really, this is my first solo hang in probably 15 years. )

I left it up for three nights. It nicely lit the three piece on Friday, the four piece on Saturday (I went back for a refocus), and the Kareoke on Sunday. Pulled it on Monday, as I was expecting my control console to arrive (woohoo, finally got a board !!). Left the rigging, to simplify the next time.

The three piece said they will use me again (and slide me a little cash). The four piece was appreciative, but would have tried using thier own lights again (possibly tripping the circuit again though), rather than pay. I never spoke with the kareoke people. The owners are interested, but I don't really want to sell. Would rather possibly lease em, with a maintenance agreement.

So, after all that, ....can anyone here offer any advise as how to go about determining a value on this??

 

[ship]

30% above your own costs often covers profit, shipping and labor. After that sales is a game and I'm glad I only do 1:1 sales at times where that markup percentage is taken into acount. After that you get into stuff like tax resale account numbers and other concepts in sales. Short of this tax resale status with you as a resale business you are double paying taxes on what you sell etc. That's only one detail of selling stuff. Small beans at first but it adds up. For resale of used gear, calculate your costs and the amount of use it has had for it's cost or in general just take a 80% of your cost type price for it as fair if still current technology.

Hope it helps as the retail side is hard and something I tend to avoid but have to do.

 

[Synchronize]

I wouldn't lease/rent the rig. I don't know how you have it hung, but I'm willing to bet you don't have insurance. God forbid something happened, the bar owner would point the finger right at you saying that it's your equipment and your liability. Without being an insured corporation you're risking everything you own. If something falls and somebody gets hurt it's all on you.

 

[mrb]

I wouldn't lease/rent the rig. I don't know how you have it hung, but I'm willing to bet you don't have insurance. God forbid something happened, the bar owner would point the finger right at you saying that it's your equipment and your liability. Without being an insured corporation you're risking everything you own. If something falls and somebody gets hurt it's all on you.

or a fire.... how do you have this wired up?

 

[journeymanjohn]

or a fire.... how do you have this wired up?

Gzuz,... so much negativity.

After nearly 20 years as an electrician, you'd think I might know how to put 350 watts on a 20 amp circuit safely, and to comply with code. Although, I will admit that the owner might benefit from just having me install another branch circuit to the performance area feeding a switched recept, however that would cost him quite a bit more than this little set-up I brought him. (I'll sell him that later)

Also, I know a permanent install with chain attached to building red iron, and carrying the EXTREME wieght of two lengths of 6"truss and 7 birdies is a risk !!! No, I didnt use safety cables, but rather used those zip ties with the metal wire inside the plastic, on the 1lb (if that) par cans.

Honestly, I am not to worried about anything falling, or burning the place down. And I don't really think it would matter who owned them. I mean,...if I install em, it's on me either way !!

My biggest concern would really be burns. I can just imagine some guitar player not being able to go on, because at a break he decides he doesn't like the light in his eyes, and tries to refocus a hot fixture. I can even see him falling off the chair, breaking his gear, and a few bones, loosing his part time job at pizza hut, getting divorced, sueing me, and I end up paying his ex-wife child support and alimony for the next 18 yrs.

 

[journeymanjohn]

I wouldn't lease/rent the rig. I don't know how you have it hung, but I'm willing to bet you don't have insurance. God forbid something happened, the bar owner would point the finger right at you saying that it's your equipment and your liability. Without being an insured corporation you're risking everything you own. If something falls and somebody gets hurt it's all on you.

Am leaning towards an L.L.C.

 

[Pie4Weebl]

My biggest concern would really be burns. I can just imagine some guitar player not being able to go on, because at a break he decides he doesn't like the light in his eyes, and tries to refocus a hot fixture. I can even see him falling off the chair, breaking his gear, and a few bones, loosing his part time job at pizza hut, getting divorced, sueing me, and I end up paying his ex-wife child support and alimony for the next 18 yrs.

I really love this response. You gotta excuse the cynicism here. The base line assumption is that anyone who posts on here is a high school student who has just discovered lights a year ago, since so many of the members are.

If it were me I would lease it to him for an open tab at the bar plus lamp replacement costs.

 

[Les]

Gzuz,... so much negativity.

After nearly 20 years as an electrician, you'd think I might know how to put 350 watts on a 20 amp circuit safely, and to comply with code....

Also, I know a permanent install with chain attached to building red iron, and carrying the EXTREME wieght of two lengths of 6"truss and 7 birdies is a risk !!!

This information wasn't provided in the OP, so I'm not surprised that you caught some negativity. For all everyone knew (and probably assumed), you were a teenager with no formal install experience (no offense to teenagers - some just might very well be qualified to do an install). I assumed that you weren't a teenager, since I was reading carefully and caught the "first solo hang in 15 years" line . It was either that, or you started REALLY young.

I think this is the primary reason behind the new job title line in the statistics section.

Personally, my current worry would be "What if the place burns down (through no fault of the lighting equipment) and all my stuff is in it?" Or, "What if the building is foreclosed on?" Currently, you have no contract, so this would be a concern with leaving things overnight or when you are otherwise not present. When you do write up a contract, be sure to address this. It would be a good idea to consult a lawyer for this kind of thing. Last time I checked, none of us were lawyers .

 

[shiben]

My biggest concern would really be burns. I can just imagine some guitar player not being able to go on, because at a break he decides he doesn't like the light in his eyes, and tries to refocus a hot fixture. I can even see him falling off the chair, breaking his gear, and a few bones, loosing his part time job at pizza hut, getting divorced, sueing me, and I end up paying his ex-wife child support and alimony for the next 18 yrs.

Actually that would probably be my biggest concern as well, having had the guitarist try and refocus lights... (he decided to try and hit it with a mic stand, turns out it didnt work well)

 

[mrb]

Am leaning towards an L.L.C.

realistically, a single member LLC isnt going to offer you any protection in an instance like this (despite what the people trying to sell you the LLC will tell you) holding proper insurance is the only thing that will.

 

[Synchronize]

Am leaning towards an L.L.C.

You would still need insurance to cover not only your liability but your equipment. Honestly I would sell the rig to him as it is, make a few hundred off of it, buy the same thing, and use profits to get some new cool gear. Heck, if it works out you could go around to all sorts of small local clubs/bars, offer a free service for a week, and then offer an as is purchase at the end of the week. You would probably still want insurance though.

My point in bringing up the insurance is not because I think that you don't know how to cover liability, but rather the cost of the insurance. Are you going to make enough profit to pay insurance and still get something decent out of it. And if you aren't going to profit enough to pay yourself and insurance, then is it really worth the risk of running without coverage and gambling on every asset you own/will own every time you set up the rig?

 

[journeymanjohn]

I agree that being insured is wise, although I haven't checked the cost yet.

And I also see the possiblilties available with other clubs / bars. However I still prefer (at least in idea) to lease the stuff. Thinking along the lines of at least getting my initial investment back the first year, and hoping to have small static rigs in clubs for years to come. Runnin a a single dynamic rig, either with the band as previously planned, or finding a club suitable to "home base" the dynamic rig. Go in and do scheduled lamp / gel changes, check bolt tightness, and such.

I guess I need to call some rental companies and see what they charge compared to the cost of purchasing the equipment outright.

Sounds like a decent part time job, in theory. Too bad I know little about running a business. Of course, as I plan on testing for my electrical contractors license within the next year, this could be a good learning experience.

 

[Synchronize]

A general rule of thumb for rental rates is around 5-10% initial cost per rental period (usually weekly in this industry). That percentage fluctuates, though. Generally lower priced items are higher percentages and higher priced items are lower percentages. A Source 4 costs around $225-250 (dealer price) and rent for around $20-25. Lower priced item = higher percentage. Take a look at a MAC 700 on the opposite end of the spectrum, though. Cost is around $5000 and rental is around $225-300. Higher priced item = lower percentage.

I noticed that your location is Midwest. If that means Chicago, it's a whole different game. Theres a lot of competition and prices fluctuate insanely. I had three places in Chicago quote me the same equipment list a couple months ago. The quotes where $200, $350, and $1075. I kid you not.

But heres the deal. Thats the rule for rental. Leasing is completely different. Rental is short term while leasing is long term. You don't see leasing a lot in this industry. Either the venue needs it a few times a year and doesn't want to buy/store it, or they need it a lot and will end up spending the same in a year or two by just buying it.

You may want to turn your focus to bands instead of venues. Offer services to bands for their special/big events. Every group is different and they aren't all going to want to use the same rig in a venue all the time. Most have their own gear (even though a large percentage of those people don't know how to properly use it). It might be easier to hook up with a few bands and cater specifically to their needs.

 

[Anvilx]

Heck, if it works out you could go around to all sorts of small local clubs/bars, offer a free service for a week, and then offer an as is purchase at the end of the week. You would probably still want insurance though.

What good idea, I am tempted to try that.

 

[gcpsoundlight]

Definately Try bands. From what I have experienced and heard, venues can be a *****! I won't start a rant now, don't worry, but I have plenty of annoying venue stories (I think we all do!)

 

[DanAyers]

I'll agree with them, i'd definitely think twice about renting it out if you're not willing to pay 100% of medical and physical liabilities that could happen in the event of your equipment being involved in an accident.


That said...

10% of Your cost per week for rental is a good place to start.

For purchasing in your position a markup of 30% as stated would be fair. Manufacturers suggested retail price for most theatrical dealers is 40% and in the midwest it seems that 20-25% is fairly typical markups that dealers charge for equipment. 15-20 if the same company installs it. Installation rates vary, but $40-$60 per hour is common in the mid-west.


Count on 5% of cost for shipping, more if it weighs alot, less if it's just a high-dollar small item.

Welcome to equipment sales 101.

OR Personally in situations like this I'm a fan of cost-plus solutions. That's where you, the client, and the vendor all agree on a set mark-up regardless of what equipment is selected.

From a gear posiiton, and this is just speculation based on your post but, to me it sounds like for what you're doing you don't need a heavy-duty truss so perhaps something from Irradiant, Global-Truss or Applied electronics with a few spansets from peak-trading & the necessary shakles, steel, etc. would be a good fit + a few Chauvet Colorado's and a quick & easy board would solve a lot of your problems & be affordable. If you do have a heavy load, then I'd spend the extra bucks for Thomas or Tomcat truss but I just don't get the feeling that you need to do so here. Depending on your application, some unistrut might be all you need to hang the fixtures also so don't rule that out.

Dan

 

[journeymanjohn]

If you all can mark it up 30% and make a profit, kudos. I know I can't.

First, figure my time checkin out the club and available power, creating a design, locating the equipment and investing not only my cash, but time also, the install, the insurance, the taxes, and profit. All for a "maybe" sale. I personally am thinking more like 300% markup, installed and out the door. (static rig, no dimmers or controls).

 

[DuckJordan]

just a thought, if you decided to put your rigs up in other bars you could possibly anger a lot of other LD, and other people just like yourself... Also are you willing if a group comes in and uses your stuff to allow them to literally use your equipment for their own purposes while your not their.

Also a side note i would suggest getting actual safety cables not because i feel safety cables are rated for such uses while the zip ties are not. but also because from another light tech's standpoint if i walk into a place and see lights being safetied by zip ties i am going to seriously talk to the owner. While they may hold I feel much safer under a tested and proven time and again source.

 

[journeymanjohn]

just a thought, if you decided to put your rigs up in other bars you could possibly anger a lot of other LD, and other people just like yourself... Also are you willing if a group comes in and uses your stuff to allow them to literally use your equipment for their own purposes while your not their.

Also a side note i would suggest getting actual safety cables not because i feel safety cables are rated for such uses while the zip ties are not. but also because from another light tech's standpoint if i walk into a place and see lights being safetied by zip ties i am going to seriously talk to the owner. While they may hold I feel much safer under a tested and proven time and again source.

That's kind of the point, should the rigs be leased or sold, to have lighting available for the bands to use. Should they want to refocus the spot, or swap out some gels.... I really don't mind. And being one who used to go from bar to bar, with a band, had I ever come accross a bar with a truss and a few fixtures...it would have been a welcomed blessing!!! Rather than having to risk breaking ceiling tiles to hang our rig, I could have just hung it all on the existing. Also, there are few if any LD's around here, not in the bars anyway, that I am aware of. They are all working down at the PAC for community theatre companies.

There are a few that are set-up to host bands that bring their own rigs (excepting a couple tri-pods), however I am basicly looking at much smaller "hole-in-the-wall" clubs. Ya know, one or two pool tables, bar-burgers, and such.

As far as the safety cables go, I agree that there are instances that may require them, however I have absolutely NO problem with hanging a a1lb par16 with a zip tie rated at 25 lbs.

 

[DuckJordan]

That's kind of the point, should the rigs be leased or sold, to have lighting available for the bands to use. Should they want to refocus the spot, or swap out some gels.... I really don't mind. And being one who used to go from bar to bar, with a band, had I ever come accross a bar with a truss and a few fixtures...it would have been a welcomed blessing!!! Rather than having to risk breaking ceiling tiles to hang our rig, I could have just hung it all on the existing. Also, there are few if any LD's around here, not in the bars anyway, that I am aware of. They are all working down at the PAC for community theatre companies.

There are a few that are set-up to host bands that bring their own rigs (excepting a couple tri-pods), however I am basicly looking at much smaller "hole-in-the-wall" clubs. Ya know, one or two pool tables, bar-burgers, and such.

As far as the safety cables go, I agree that there are instances that may require them, however I have absolutely NO problem with hanging a a1lb par16 with a zip tie rated at 25 lbs.

I guess it just depends on personal preference, i know when i go into places at least around the South Dakota area, i want empty circuits and nothing else. Also i would be very cautious of pre hung truss as i wouldn't know who set it up and how much weight it could hold. this is coming from some one who has about 2 years in the industry and feels much safer depending on my own work rather than someone i don't knows work. (no offense intended). Also as far as safety cable goes again i stress that while a zip tie is rated for 25 lbs. those are much more massively produced, while safety cable is rated and tested consistently. Not saying that weight is an issue i just feel it looks more professional and makes me feel safer when i see instruments whether it be a gobo rotators or a par can hung with a safety cable just because i know what they are rated for and know that it is an industry standard.