Meanwhile, in Japan

[gafftapegreenia]

They're manufacturing a 'modern' PC Box Spot
http://www.marumo.co.jp/pdf/spot/08_t1_df_bnq_fpq.pdf

And improving on Plano Convex and Fresnel lenses
http://www.marumo.co.jp/pdf/spot/17_spotlens.pdf

And making their own ultra-modern Ellipsoidal
http://www.marumo.co.jp/pdf/spot/09_rikuri2.pdf

While it's doubtful I'll ever get to play with any of this, I enjoy knowing that the Japanese never gave up on the PC or the Fresnel.

 

[metti]

I enjoy knowing that the Japanese never gave up on the PC or the Fresnel.

Did anyone give up on the Fresnel? I still find them pretty invaluable and widely use them in my designs. I am alone?

 

[Les]

Did anyone give up on the Fresnel? I still find them pretty invaluable and widely use them in my designs. I am alone?

Yea, no one uses the fresnel anymore...

Just kidding. Actually, the fresnel (while inefficient), doesn't have much in it that can be improved on. Other than what Selecon has done, the technology is pretty much at a stand still. Really, for the fresnel to move forward, lamp technology needs to first. I've always thought the reflectors could be improved also, since most of the energy that comes out of a fresnel lamp doesn't get redirected by the reflector, but instead hits the inside walls of the instrument, only to emerge as more heat.

Too bad we never use the PC spot here. Something like a fresnel with a hard edge beam that can be zoomed could be really nice for sidelight.

 

[ship]

Too bad we never use the PC spot here. Something like a fresnel with a hard edge beam that can be zoomed could be really nice for sidelight.

I've won an award in part for the use of them before. Granted it was only "an elephant in a shoe box" award and years ago, but in addition to the hard edge there was a certain graininess going on with the beam. Hard to describe, but it really helped with the antique look they were tasked with.

Fascinating new Lekos, tasked one of my co-workers going to LDI to get me both lamp catalogues and visit them if there. Could be really interesting.

 

[derekleffew]

Good to know Marumo will be at LDI--ten years ago!
LDI2000

 

[Lotos]

Good to know Marumo will be at LDI--ten years ago!
LDI2000

Seems to be an older version of their website... My current favourite though was finding this little gem:
COMPANY PROFILE
MARUMO WEB

Compare the two 'Founded' dates


I do want me some of those leko's though...

 

[SteveB]

Looks to me that they are reverse engineering the S4, with some twists.

The zoom ellipsoidals are not quite as elegant as the ETC models, that have one zoom/focus knob.

Lot's else looks like a 20 year old ETC stuff.

 

[JD]

Odd... The ERS has a "frosted" lamp available for it? Kind of defeats the purpose of shooting for a point source lamp. (Scroll down to the bottom of the PDF fro the available lamps.)

 

[Les]

I don't understand why all these companies are trying to make their instruments resemble Source Four's, albeit with some minor modifications, other than to maybe gain a false sense of comfort for the consumer. If you ask me, the basic case design of the Source Four is getting a little tired.

The zoom is something I don't get either. If you're going to reverse engineer something, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but figure out how Strand did the SL Zooms and try to improve on that. Sure it still has two knobs, but it was much smaller and easier to work with, concerning the size and shape of the thing.

 

[MNicolai]

I don't understand why all these companies are trying to make their instruments resemble Source Four's, albeit with some minor modifications, other than to maybe gain a false sense of comfort for the consumer. If you ask me, the basic case design of the Source Four is getting a little tired.

Just because your company is late to the game doesn't mean the laws of physics are radically changing such that you can invent a new wheel that doesn't at all resemble any already existing ones. For decades, fresnels looked just like each other, just some larger than others with the standard coat of brown paint. The only development in the last decade and a half is that we've learned people prefer them powder-coated black. If you want to get all hopped up on the features, then the Selecon fresnels have integrated safety cables and lamp housings that kill power to the lamp socket when you open them up.

The zoom is something I don't get either. If you're going to reverse engineer something, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but figure out how Strand did the SL Zooms and try to improve on that. Sure it still has two knobs, but it was much smaller and easier to work with, concerning the size and shape of the thing.

The zoom feature of the SL was a further-developed version of the Electro Controls Parellipsphere, which also had two knobs like the SL, but didn't have as wide of a degree range.

This and every other industry are built on things that look like each other. Companies often take ideas from other companies and make their own attempts to improve upon them, but the laws of physics don't change just because you want to manipulate them to your company's advantage. How often do you see a sedan on the road made to operate on a number of tires that isn't four? We've all seen one or two in photographs, and maybe at in a conceptual sketch or at a car show you'll see something different, but the reason most cars have four tires is because it works.

Just because there are 20 companies that make ERS fixtures doesn't mean that there are 20 more innovations to be made. Inevitably, some fixtures are going to look a lot like others. Until another big innovation comes through, that's just the way it's going to be. Before now and then, there might be a few more patent lawsuits and some companies will continue to pay royalties to others, but that's how business works.

 

[Les]

I'm not saying each company needs to come up with something radically different, just that maybe they should put more effort in to the case design of the fixture. They all tout these new features, yet they still look like Source Four's, and they're not even made by ETC. Even down to the gel frame holder and housing extrusion patterns.

Think to what Altman did for the Shakespeare and Strand did for the SL. Not perfect fixtures, but at least they put some effort in to coming up with something that looks a little different.

Not sure what you mean by "your company being late to the game"? Are you speaking hypothetically, as if I were an employee of a company manufacturing a higher performance ellipsoidal, or are you insinuating that I'm jealous of the Source Four? I'm a freelancer. Some places I work in have Source Four's, some don't. I have no bias.

 

[MNicolai]

I was speaking in hypotheticals. It helps people see things from a different perspective and makes for more interesting discussions. No insinuations or accusations intended.

 

[Les]

No problem, MNicolai. I felt like the former was what you were trying to convey but I wasn't sure.

For the record, I feel like the Source Four is a very well-designed instrument which is a joy to work with. Given current technology, there isn't much to improve! I just wish that when companies embarked on their own innovations, they would put equal effort in to creating their own aesthetic appeal, rather than recycling someone else's. There are so many Source Four Par lookalikes out there, it's not even funny. Would it be so hard to redesign exterior so that it actually looks original? I guess that would cut in to their bottom line a little too much. Mostly, I'm speaking of American DJ and Behringer here.

 

[MNicolai]

Yes, the PAR phenomenon is amazing to me. I think a product is on one side of the fence or the other; they either have a uniquely looking design for a good product that will be recognizable and when people see it, they'll think of the correct company, or they have a design that looks a lot like someone else's, is sub-standard in features and quality, and when people look at that product, the manufacturer wants to trick people into thinking it's made by a much better company than it actually is.

Brand recognition. Either you have it or you're duping your customers into not realizing who they're actually buying something from.

I remember the first time I opened a trade magazine a couple years ago and saw a photo of what looked like Source Four PAR, but with LED's -- I spent the next hour trying to figure out whether or not it was actually an ETC product.

 

[metti]

I remember the first time I opened a trade magazine a couple years ago and saw a photo of what looked like Source Four PAR, but with LED's -- I spent the next hour trying to figure out whether or not it was actually an ETC product.

In case anybody who is reading this is unclear on this, the answer is that it, in fact, was not an ETC product. My money is on Elation who is probably the bigest culprit in the world of S4 PAR based designs.

 

[MNicolai]

I do believe it was an Elation product. It even had the logo and everything in the ad, which for a short while I had completely convinced myself was a misprint because "that looks exactly like a Source Four PAR!" I'll dig through the stack of magazines I've acquired and see if I can find the ad.

 

[derekleffew]

Okay, so whose PAR64 can is this?

James Thomas Engineering in the UK was first with the spun aluminum can, but HiLights, Upstaging, ShowCo, Pete's Lights, SeeFactor, et al made their own version at one time or another. Today we have Tomcat, MBT, ProCan, and a zillion Asian imports. Should they all be paying Thomas a royalty?

 

[DuckJordan]

Okay, so whose PAR64 can is this?

James Thomas Engineering in the UK was first with the spun aluminum can, but HiLights, Upstaging, ShowCo, Pete's Lights, SeeFactor, et al made their own version at one time or another. Today we have Tomcat, MBT, ProCan, and a zillion Asian imports. Should they all be paying Thomas a royalty?

That would be my part can (i think). but seriously every par can except for some minor attachment points and maybe weld spots are the same. It seriously looks a lot like the ones i own, but I can't tell and neither can the people i bought it from (they got them used from a local community theater who was liquidating their old gear.

 

[Les]

Okay, so whose PAR64 can is this?

James Thomas Engineering in the UK was first with the spun aluminum can, but HiLights, Upstaging, ShowCo, Pete's Lights, SeeFactor, et al made their own version at one time or another. Today we have Tomcat, MBT, ProCan, and a zillion Asian imports. Should they all be paying Thomas a royalty?

Interesting spin on things. In a sense, yes, I think Tomas does deserve something. They came up with a new way to manufacture Par Cans, and while basic, it's an innovation none the less. It's saving a lot of companies A LOT of money.

Speaking of lookalikes, take a look at L&E and Altman. L&E is a pretty respected company, but they did use brand recognition in their favor to manufacture a fixture that looked like a 360Q from a distance, but using thinner materials on closer inspection.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Well if we really want to talk about companies copying each other.....

And the dozen others from extinct companies or brands.