Nails or Screws?
- Thread starterzuixro
- Start date
I've gotta echo Davey. Depends on the task at hand. Primarily screws for things like triscuits and broadway flats, nails for structural stuff. Staples for Studio flats and decking.
one of my favorite quotes; " When the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer you tend to see all you problems as nails."
one of my favorite quotes; " When the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer you tend to see all you problems as nails."
We do both here. We have a few large framing nailers, so if we are building a platform, it gets nailed. Because everything we build is for the show and not for stock, when something is built, it is built. Nearly everything here is nailed, vers-pinned, or stapled. We use screws regularly, but we go through staples and versa-pins faster then anything.
scenerymaker
Member
Since a lot of my stuff is 1/4" luan that gets spray foamed, I use a lot of staples and subfloor adhesive. Most of my structures get screwed together because they get handled pretty roughly at loadout. 50 volunteers, outdoors in December, generally in a snowstorm, late at night, is not conducive to being careful.
Anything held together with nails gets knocked apart in only a few years.
Anything held together with nails gets knocked apart in only a few years.Depends on the situation and application. For instance if using lumber for a jig you might wish to re-use, a drywall screw or a few especially pneumatic finish nails might be more useful? Installing molding for a set or house and especially if you don't want to fill any large holes, nails or screws? Want to remove later such installed molding, nails or screws? This especially if you wish to re-use such molding?
Easier to drive or pop out of a leg to a platform a few double headed nails or drywall screws on set with pro or at times similar to that amature labor? "Drill that screw home."
Depends on the application. Yea, sure say a 12d cc nail might for a set better be replaced by a 3" drywall screw. Depends on the application of course.
Easier to drive or pop out of a leg to a platform a few double headed nails or drywall screws on set with pro or at times similar to that amature labor? "Drill that screw home."
Depends on the application. Yea, sure say a 12d cc nail might for a set better be replaced by a 3" drywall screw. Depends on the application of course.
By the way a nail holds by way of driving thru the lumber in forming a bunch of little slivers of wood about the nail as if slivers preventing that nail from being removed from the wood. The Pneumatic nail has a glue coating to it which adds to that difficulty.
The drywall screw for the most part works by way of this above to some extent though it's driven in by twisting thru such slivers of wood preventing it from coming out by way of twisting in instead of direct drive an given it's parallel body as opposed to a in the past real wood screw's tapered body in all of it making for them slivers of wood in preventing it from coming out, I remember a drywall screw at 40# sheer strength relies on 80% of its holding power in the tapered tip of the drywall screw added to the threaded parallel body of it in holding it in place.
So in other words a drywall screw in driving itself home to some extent burns thru any grip of most of the lumber in preventing it from gripping the fastiner of the lumber, only its tapered tip pressure locks agains removal for the most part. (This also much dependant on the type of screw used in some cases - course or fine thread or double thread most often available in addition to screw stock size most often #6 or #8 also plays a factor.)
Still though a drywall screw reiles on its threads to grip in addition to the pressure of the lumber on the tip of the screw from preventing it from un-screwing or coming loose. A nail relies on the tip splitting the wood or if blunted cutting its way thru the wood initially and all the shaft of the nail after driven into the lumber preventing that nail from popping becaues that lumber driven thru is ben inward towards the nail and grips it in preventing it from coming out.
Lots of science hear but hopefully a start into concepts and differences between nails and screws.
The drywall screw for the most part works by way of this above to some extent though it's driven in by twisting thru such slivers of wood preventing it from coming out by way of twisting in instead of direct drive an given it's parallel body as opposed to a in the past real wood screw's tapered body in all of it making for them slivers of wood in preventing it from coming out, I remember a drywall screw at 40# sheer strength relies on 80% of its holding power in the tapered tip of the drywall screw added to the threaded parallel body of it in holding it in place.
So in other words a drywall screw in driving itself home to some extent burns thru any grip of most of the lumber in preventing it from gripping the fastiner of the lumber, only its tapered tip pressure locks agains removal for the most part. (This also much dependant on the type of screw used in some cases - course or fine thread or double thread most often available in addition to screw stock size most often #6 or #8 also plays a factor.)
Still though a drywall screw reiles on its threads to grip in addition to the pressure of the lumber on the tip of the screw from preventing it from un-screwing or coming loose. A nail relies on the tip splitting the wood or if blunted cutting its way thru the wood initially and all the shaft of the nail after driven into the lumber preventing that nail from popping becaues that lumber driven thru is ben inward towards the nail and grips it in preventing it from coming out.
Lots of science hear but hopefully a start into concepts and differences between nails and screws.
Sayen
Active Member
For personal projects, a mix, pretty much what others said above. In the theater, when I'm teaching students who have never seen a hammer or drill before, we use screws. I tried nails once, but it was painful watching them get bent all over, missing strikes with the hammers, and any time something was built wrong...oh the horror!
And hopefully a class in driving a nails subset from what is used on scenery including staples or brad nailers. Clout nail, how to and what is needed in back plate, to pneumatics, each part I hope a good education because as with lighting, no matter how modern instructed on as the future often for now an the immediate future what students need is in past history and older technology. Years ago like 1987 I set up a jig table for doing clout nail soft flats, was a fascinating project as opposed to just doing them on the cement floor or with drywall screws or the pneumatics available for the day. Lost art that clout nail concept but one that even for educational purposes should survive even if it takes more time than glueing and pneumatic stapling. Clout nails do come loose after a long history of abuse long after the glue fails dependant on the glue, but once driven you cannot get them out and you can pound them home again later. Glue of course the binder of wood no matter what the method and it in quality needs instruction also. (Used to work for the scene shop for the Mayor's Office of Special Events in Chicago and achieved Master Carpenter status with it until they did away with such a thing. None the less, by way of reading the back of a glue bottle at some point I noted a possible reason for why we were constantly fixing outdoor scenery in our first years = gee we are usign white glue on stuff that's getting wet much less full of grease from cooking booths. Once the glue fails by way of moving about or install, its just the glue of a pneumatic staple that is holding say fencing together thus the volume of say fencing between booths that we constantly have to repair before the next event. Switched to wood glue and that amount of fixes about dropped in half at least even given for out door events wood glue while more economical was not a best option but at the time the best we had.) Once the gule fails or if it fails in no amont of added stapeles or screws will hold the scenery togher in a lasting way, that is only a bandade to the situation the fastener type or that of it driven further home. It's not the faster it's the glue and in some way joint. 150 year old tongue and groove joints without fasteners and glue still hold, few hundred year old dove tail joints hold, less a question of what lumber to lumber joints hold than how out of expediadiance we glue and supplement with fasteners than make a swiss cheese out of that joint later that is in question of it easier to make say a butt joint, how we can get the swiss cheese and stress away from that joint.
On a platform, grew up with 12d and 16d nails for platforms and them constantly coming loose and needing work for the next show in being pulled out of the platform room. Drywall screws for the most part revolutionized the industry but they still didn't really hold as perminant what the glue failed on and what was repaired the glue had already failed on. Pneumatic nails with hot melt glue coating to them could solve many problems in nail getting that every square inch of it slivers of wood bent so as to retain the nail plus the glue to it holding that nail in, but as with the glue added to the joints at times it cannot at some point overcome the stresses to the platform or its butt joints especially if lots of holes put into that specific area in weaking it. Past scenic company I worked from was into 5/4 x 6 lumber and aluminum reinforced corner bracing also designed to accept a 2x4 leg by way of double headed nail holding on the leg. This if not in other places a leg that had sway bracing pre-attached to the leg where you not just nailed or screwed the 2x4 leg but also plywood corner brace for the leg to the platform so as to distribute the surface area of the stress on that corner by way of screws in different locations mostly than what screws were in use to hold that butt joint together.
Overall concept on a leg is 18" of unsupported distance (and as a given a platform is in good condition when the leg is attached to a possibly bad corner or such nails for the leg are driven into the same area the fasteners holding the corner of the platform together a leg needs to attach to - small bullet big sky in weakening the platform fasteners.)
Anyway, no matter what the type of platform manufacture, once you attach a few dozen legs to it over a lifetime of the platform you tend to make what lumber the corners of it is fastened to much like swiss cheese - especially if it's legging gets stuck and yanked off. Problem than is legging in the same area one is fastening that platform together from. And the stresses of the legs in that same localized area.
Either need a leg mechanism out of steel or aluminum that both supports that joint and the plywood in the corner than the legs for holding it up removes the swiss cheese from the corner while supporting the legs, or say less swiss cheese in the corners of the platform by way of driving that leg into the direct area where the platform is held together in the least extent possible and further supports the leg in the field of the platform by way of screwing thru the sway brace. This means legs that have plywood sway brace corner blocks of at least half inch already glued and attached to them where by you can instead of screwing that 2x4 into the corner of the platform, instead say do one or two screws into the 2x4 to keep it honest, but mostly screw your shorter and easier to drive screws into the plywood corner bracing which goes into the field of the platform in not making swiss cheese of that corner. A few screws across say a 12 to 18" corner brace well away from the corner as opposed to right at the corner will both ensure your platform stays togeter better and lasts longer - this no matter the fastener type. This plus once the sway bracing is pre-attached and glued to the leg, you now have a quicker install and one you won't need to further intall sway bracing to. One step under or parallel to truss style platforming where the platforms more sit on a pre-legged trussed section where the support is already installed and you more fasten the platform into its support structure.
Different concepts both the aluminum or steel frame about the corner that will accept a leg or that of a leg that distributes the attachment about the platform as opposed to its direct corner. As with the platform truss in better ways to do a platform legging. Amazing how beneficial it is once one is using a platform for a platform an it's legging is not directly in the location of the leg for it how much better a plat will survive.
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Gaff's Rules:
If it's something that will be used over and over in stock and therefore may need modifications or replacement parts down the road it get's screws.
If it's a temporary thing built only for one show, it gets screws so that the wood can be recycled.
If it's something that either can't be recycled or won't ever need modification, it get's nails.
Then there are the occasional aesthetic reasons to choose one over the other.
If it's something that will be used over and over in stock and therefore may need modifications or replacement parts down the road it get's screws.
If it's a temporary thing built only for one show, it gets screws so that the wood can be recycled.
If it's something that either can't be recycled or won't ever need modification, it get's nails.
Then there are the occasional aesthetic reasons to choose one over the other.
Here's a great guide from the NRHA (National Retail Hardware Association) on how to select the proper screw or nail for the job.
Selecting the Proper Nail and Using it Correctly
Selecting the Correct Screw and Using it Properly
Selecting the Proper Nail and Using it Correctly
Selecting the Correct Screw and Using it Properly
Cashwalker
Member
kicknargel
Well-Known Member
Here's my little diatribe: drywall screws are meant for, well, drywall. They're not very strong, the heads strip or break--they cause all kinds of grief. We use McFeeley's Square Drive screws. They're made of steel, and the square recess is much less prone to stripping. (Actually we use the Promaster, which can drive with square or phillips [square is much better] and need less pre-drilling.) Unplated Steel Screws, Screws by Material / Finish, Screws - McFeely's
They're expensive, but so worth it, especially if you reclaim them at strike.
I don't know how the strength compares to nails, but I use them in all structural application. Driven with an impact gun--well I still get giddy over the improvement from what I started my career with.
Nicholas Kargel
You Want What? Productions INC
scenic design and construction in Denver, CO
www.youwantwhatproductions.com
They're expensive, but so worth it, especially if you reclaim them at strike.
I don't know how the strength compares to nails, but I use them in all structural application. Driven with an impact gun--well I still get giddy over the improvement from what I started my career with.
Nicholas Kargel
You Want What? Productions INC
scenic design and construction in Denver, CO
www.youwantwhatproductions.com
thatactorguy
Active Member
A theatre where I do some work- I'm actually directing Nunsense II there now- has a pretty horrible setup: no wing space at all, three walls (US, SL, SR) with 5' openings- standard door height- DL & DR and 29" openings UL & UR. The walls are faced with drywall upon metal studs. I discovered this atrocity when I built Cinderella and found I really had nothing to attach the flats to (I built a two scene set with folding walls; do a three scene show like Hello, Dolly, and it's a logistical nightmare on that stage, although doable). A few of the coarse thread drywall screws I used pulled right out, but I was able to get behind some of the wall and add a piece of 1x4 so the screws- and eventually lag bolts- had something to grab.
Interesting link on the McFeeley's, I'll check into it. I think the main reason we go with drywall screws is because they're locally available, inexpensive, are strong enough for the pretty short length of time the show is in production (eight weeks average, counting the run itself), and- as was previously mentioned- set pieces are usually temporary.
Drywall screws are legendary for breaking heads. The TD at the local university demonstrated how weak they are by holding each end of a drywall screw with two pairs of pliars and effortlessly snapping it in two. He then showed the strength of a steel screw by not even being able to bend it with the pliars.
A trick I learned several years ago on dealing with broken drywall screws: rather than break them off with a hammer, thereby leaving a nice chunk of metal in the lumber for the next person to discover while cutting that board, I pull the bit out of my driver, size down the chuck so it fits snugly around the remaining screw, and slowly back out the screw. I thought it was an old trick, but I have yet to run out of people who are amazed by that, especially when they see it for the first time...
Staples are quick and easy, especially when attaching moulding, but a royal PITA when cleaning up the lumber...
