Installs New sound system in dance facility

[flyweed]

Hi all.

I have been tasked with coming up with a sound system for our new "dance facility" It's really a big rectangular room with an elevated stage at one end, where small dance performances take place. The facility is 35 feet wide and 65 feet deep from the front edge of the stage to the back wall. depth of stage is 27 feet. so TOTAL depth from back of stage to back wall of room is so about 92 feet from back wall on stage, to back wall of room.

I'd like to set up a mix position center on the back wall. with speakers (possibly arrays) above on and on each side of the stage. Maybe a subwoofer as well?? This space is used PRIMARILY for small dance recitals..but also some lectures, seminars etc.

Wondering if you guys could provide me some advice/help on what I should look at for sound board, snake, speakers, etc. For sound board I was thinking MAYBE a Midas 32 channel or Soundcratft digital mixer. I have no allegiance to any specific speaker brand really.

Any thoughts, feel free to post. Thanks

 

[jkowtko]

What is being performed? For dance shows I basically had 1-2 handheld mics for the emcees, and a stereo playback unit to play the music that is being danced to. Almost nothing is needed in the way of mixing board ... most of my attention was paid to selection and placement of speakers for the best sound from the songs being played, full-range with good bottom end, immersing the audience.

If you are mentioning a 32 channel board then you must have other types of performances in mind ... please provide more detail.

 

[sk8rsdad]

If the venue is going to be used primarily for dance is there any reason to need a 32 channel mixer? Are you actually mixing live bands for dance performance? Seems to me you would be better served to put your money into the speakers and amplifiers.

 

[flyweed]

No...actually probably NO need for a 32 channel. I'd like to do AT LEAST a 20-22 channel. The space would be used PRIMARILY for dance recitals..however, we want to open it up to maybe having lectures, comedy, maybe jazz groups, small musical groups. I don't want to limit it, due to a small mixer. I like the SoundCraft Si Expression board 24 channel and then for ease of access, doing a Soundcraft "mini 16 stagebox" or similar backstage for mic connection and speaker connection points. I'd also like to have at least 4 stage monitors.

So there is a little more detail on space setup and use.

 

[DrewE]

What are the acoustics of the space like--is it live or dead? How high is the ceiling? What sort of acoustic treatments are there? What is your plan for mounting the speakers (not all speakers are designed or rated to be flown)? What sort of a budget are you constrained by?

Frankly, I suspect you would be well-served to consult with an (independent) professional audio consultant, particularly in regards to selecting and positioning the speakers. Arrays are not always the best answer for longish narrowish rooms, particularly live ones, as they tend to have relatively poor horizontal pattern control. Sometimes a single center overhead speaker or cluster works out very well for such rooms. What will work for your particular venue is, of course, impossible to even guess at without a lot more information.

32 channels seems entirely overkill for dance recitals (with recorded music), lectures, and seminars. It's not unreasonable for many live bands, but you didn't mention anything about that use. If just dance and speakers, etc. I would give a lot of consideration to the possibility of only using wireless microphones, and not installing a snake, since the number required is small and in many cases the wireless ones would be preferred anyhow. A dancer or presenter cannot trip due to getting their feet tangled up in radio waves.

There are small digital mixers available that offer a tremendous amount of power and flexibility for not much money, particularly if you're willing to use a laptop or tablet as the control surface. For small and relatively inexpensive analog mixers I personally am a little partial to the Allen and Heath Zed series.

I hope it goes without saying, but whatever you do, make absolutely sure any speakers or other things mounted overhead are properly rigged with the correct hardware and are rated for such installation. I've seen far too many speaker installations that give me the heebie-jeebies.

 

[jkowtko]

Okay, to give you a data point, here's the least I would do in the room with a very modest budget

* 2 Mackie SRM450 speakers on tripod stands
* DL1608 or XR18 console, with iPad
* individual XLR cables and patch cables from GLS Audio
* A couple of cheap XLR wired mics
* place sound console up at the stage next to one of the speakers, you can wander around the room to mix using the iPad/iPhone

Granted I have all of the above equipment (except for the XR18) so it's easy for me to offer that up as a suggestion, but a lot of my sound work (which is a side hobby for me) has been done with bang-for-the-buck as the primary goal.

The above will cost you around $2k all in, you can use your iPhone or the iPad for the music playback ... use a Macbook with QLab if you want to get more sophisticated.

If you want to shave off a few bucks, get Behringer speakers instead of the Mackies, DL806 or X16 or X12 console, find a used iPad 2 if you have to purchase an iPad

If you want to add a few bucks, get QSC K12 speakers instead, consider adding a sub, upgrade the wired mics to wireless (I have AKG WMS450 with D5 capsule, nice warm sound).

Edit: just saw your bit about the small bands ... the X/XR stageboxes are designed to be used for small bands, can be located with the band and operated remotely via wifi. You can do the same with the DL too, just not docking an iPad in it. My DL1608 has enough channels to handle a medium sized band; I use it for school instrumental music concerts with 16 mics scattered around the sections. As for A&H -- I also own a Qu-PAC but haven't used it yet, the iPad app usability isn't nearly as good as Master Fader. So if you are thinking about remote mixing with the iPad, make sure you give the apps a good look before you make a decision. Also check out Behringer's X32 line, I've heard some very good things about it.

 

[flyweed]

What are the acoustics of the space like--is it live or dead? How high is the ceiling? What sort of acoustic treatments are there? What is your plan for mounting the speakers (not all speakers are designed or rated to be flown)? What sort of a budget are you constrained by?

Frankly, I suspect you would be well-served to consult with an (independent) professional audio consultant, particularly in regards to selecting and positioning the speakers. Arrays are not always the best answer for longish narrowish rooms, particularly live ones, as they tend to have relatively poor horizontal pattern control. Sometimes a single center overhead speaker or cluster works out very well for such rooms. What will work for your particular venue is, of course, impossible to even guess at without a lot more information.

32 channels seems entirely overkill for dance recitals (with recorded music), lectures, and seminars. It's not unreasonable for many live bands, but you didn't mention anything about that use. If just dance and speakers, etc. I would give a lot of consideration to the possibility of only using wireless microphones, and not installing a snake, since the number required is small and in many cases the wireless ones would be preferred anyhow. A dancer or presenter cannot trip due to getting their feet tangled up in radio waves.

There are small digital mixers available that offer a tremendous amount of power and flexibility for not much money, particularly if you're willing to use a laptop or tablet as the control surface. For small and relatively inexpensive analog mixers I personally am a little partial to the Allen and Heath Zed series.

I hope it goes without saying, but whatever you do, make absolutely sure any speakers or other things mounted overhead are properly rigged with the correct hardware and are rated for such installation. I've seen far too many speaker installations that give me the heebie-jeebies.

Drew...actually I did mention bands...small jazz groups, and small maybe 2,3,4 piece combos, that sort of thing. We'd never do a full on "rock" show or anything like that....but I can easily see a standard jazz group coming in. needing 3 mics at their sax section, 2-3 mics at the brass section, input for keyboard, guitar and bass amp mic'ing. and maybe a small mic kit on the drum kit. so I can forsee using a 24 channel up easily.

the room is fairly bright at this point, with no acoustical treatment for "bounce" other than the soft goods on stage..standard legs and some borders. Nothing in the seating/audience area for acoustical treatment. Ceiling height is 35 feet. Floor in the facility is wood, as it also doubles as a large dance studio. as the seating is just "wenger" style portable chairs and not permanent.

Oh and YES..I am partial to Allen and Heath as well. It's what I learned on "back in the day" But then moved on with the rest of the world to digital. Still have my old A&H sitting here! Love that thing.

as for rigging. My day job is Tech Director in a fully functioning PAC..so rigging is not a problem for me, once I figure out what will work best for this new facility, as far as speakers and placement.

 

[Aaron Becker]

My day job is Tech Director in a fully functioning PAC..so rigging is not a problem for me, once I figure out what will work best for this new facility, as far as speakers and placement.

I think where most of us find concern is not if you have the knowledge to hang things over peoples' heads, but whether you are actually able to provide the best coverage/splay/aiming/tuning of a installed speaker system that surely a contractor should be able to provide for a reasonable cost and a lot less headache. I've worked with numerous people who found once they turned over the control of at least the speaker system and amp'ing to someone who'd done it a few dozen times and does it professionally, they were much, much happier with the results.

Depending on the room, and how often you'd use the speakers for anything besides a few microphones for basic PA, you could also consider doing ground stack speakers on the stage itself and eliminate the permanent/rigging issues altogether. Depends on the use of the space, obviously.