newbie truss & mover questions

[jeffsw6]

I hope you folks won't mind a non-theatrical/venue question; most threads on here are quite different than my usual forum. I am a very small sound company, typically working at 200 - 500 guest events for venues or bands. My customers are satisfied with the sound job and some are happy with the few light fixtures I own, others always wish for more. FYI I currently have four PAR64 LED, two wash fixtures I often can't use because they draw a lot of power, and a Show Designer 1 for control. I have no truss, only tripod poles with T-bars.

I would like to upgrade significantly, but I need to stay portable, keep electrical demand low, and not greatly increase my setup time. My budget is around $5000 - $8000. I think I know what I want to do, but am looking for a sanity & safety check. My plans are to buy:
* 2 Global Truss ST-157 crank stands and truss adapters
* about 30 feet of Global Truss F34 square sections, 2m or 3m pieces
* 4 Chauvet Q-Spot 260 LED moving heads
* additional PAR64 LED fixtures
* mounting hardware to get fixtures onto the truss, safety cables
* electrical string and dmx cable to pre-wire each truss segment

I would put the truss sections onto the lifts, attach the fixtures, crank the lifts up, and start my show. The truss would remain on the lifts the whole time and that would be the only ground support. I am not entirely clear on if this is the right way to do it.

This would be only for indoor use. I almost always have at least one person with me to assist; but I believe I could get this equipment setup by myself if absolutely necessary, as the truss segments with electrical on them would not be heavy.

Also, I am thinking about using my Show Designer for my "B rig" eventually, and buying a Martin LightJockey interface for my laptop to run this setup. I think the ability to build a show offline will be helpful, especially while I am at the bottom of the moving head learning curve. The visualizer seems very nice and I think I could get my show ready simply by editing the positions the fixtures point toward, probably just by changing the position presets, and not having to change much else. I realize I could basically accomplish the same thing with the Show Designer, but not as easily; and my "cheat sheet" for memory locations would really grow a lot vs having everything organized and named in the computer.

A couple of final questions:
* where do I buy proper DMX cable cost-effectively, so I can stop using mic cable?
* is there an inexpensive DMX splitter I can get?
* if I want custom gobos made for me, where can I have these made and what sort of design do they need to work from?

Thanks in advance for your input!

 

[len]

Some of the answers may violate TOS for this site, but I'll answer as best I can, including some opinion.
1. Cranks and truss are fine, but you really need to determine load limits, etc. before attempting. You'll need to be very careful how you position everything, including the lights on the truss, so that you keep the load balanced. Depending on your experience level you may even need to consult a certified rigger to make sure you're doing it right.
2. I hate pin truss, especially Global. Bolt truss or plated truss takes longer to assemble and you will need wrenches with it, but IMO it goes together better.
3. You'll need truss adaptors for the crank stands.
4. Proper dmx cable, etc., can be had by [email protected]. He posts here regularly, and he's usually good for a couple jokes as well. Same with custom gobos.
5. I have a couple Elation splitters. They work well, but there are others. Fleenor comes to mind.
6. LJ is a great program. Make sure you read up on their new "one-key" program so you don't buy the wrong thing. I use LJ the way you're describing all the time. You can make a bunch of "presets" and just update the focus points based on the show and leave everything else alone. Read the LJ forum and the help and other files floating around the interwebs for suggestions. If you weren't so far away, I'd be willing to give you a tutorial.
7. A lot of people like Chamsys for control. I've never used it so I don't know anything about it.

 

[techno89]

A couple of final questions:
* where do I buy proper DMX cable cost-effectively, so I can stop using mic cable?
* is there an inexpensive DMX splitter I can get?
* if I want custom gobos made for me, where can I have these made and what sort of design do they need to work from?

Thanks in advance for your input!

To answer those

1. 137: Cables (DMX & Analog) those are the dmx cables

2.Amazon.com: Chauvet Data Stream 4 Lighting System: Musical Instruments: Reviews, Prices & more
theres the splitter but you dont really need it just use the thruputs on each device

3. get them made by Rosco, the reqs are their website

also the cheaplights.com has 19.5 truss (100lb cap but i think theres an options for a better one) and crank stands for 250 I believe and par 64leds for 109 each.

and yes to all say cheaplights.com, techno89 have you sunk so low? no im just putting the option on the table

 

[derekleffew]

1. Consider our advertisers, Production Advantage and Stage Spot for DMX cables.
2. Enttec's D-Split is a very affordable opto-splitter.
3. Use your friendly local lighting dealer for either Rosco or Apollo custom gobos. Link to Apollo's artwork requirements.

As Len said, Martin's Light Jockey may be nearing the end of its product life. Investigate carefully.

Topics specific to mobile DJs may be better covered at DJ Chat and PSW: Lighting than here.

...and yes to all say cheaplights.com, techno89 have you sunk so low? no im just putting the option on the table

Why anyone would even suggest a company that has blatant false information (http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/15407-facts-about-dmx.html and Light Network discussion) on its website is beyond me.

 

[Anvilx]

I feel more comfortable buying used then buying from that website. Seriously check out the sources for used equipment collaborative article. Umm that Chauvet splitter is probably overkill. I would feel more comfortable with Enttec's new little opto spliter the D-split. It's $20 bucks cheaper and made by a brand that I hold to a higher standard. But something by Doug Fleenor is better though pricier to. Hey at least you didn't recommend any adj products. Just say no to buying truss from cheap lights while its probably all stuff that would work, RIGGING IS NOT SOMETHING TO BE CHEAP ABOUT PERIOD. You could be putting yours or some one else's life in jeopardy.

The only thing I think I agree with you on is that rosco can custom make gobos. In fact so can apollo!!

 

[Pie4Weebl]

audiolines has good deals, and you can call and negotiate with them. Back when I was doing the night club lighting thing I often bought from them.

 

[len]

As Len said, Martin's Light Jockey may be nearing the end of its product life. Investigate carefully.

That's not exactly true. LightJockey is still current. 2.95 is the current software version, and still works. The hardware is being upgraded, and the current Universal USB is being phased out to a new product, which I'm told will have more functionality. Here's the link Martin Bulletin Board - Introducing Martin One-Key (Updated Oct 29 2010) If I had to guess, they'll be upgrading this for a few months, and will roll out LJ 3.0 in the spring.

 

[BrockTucker]

Avoid Global Truss. I've had loadouts go into extra innings several times because a pin simply could not be removed, no matter how much banging with increasingly larger sledge hammers. Inevitably someone manages to put a football in backward (no matter how much instruction they are given), or simply hits the pin to hard. On one notable occasion we finally had to saw two sections of truss apart in order to get it into the truck.

Bad memories, go with bolt together truss and save yourself many headaches. Speaking of headaches, if you do get pin truss get ready to love the sound of banging and ringing aluminum.

 

[jeffsw6]

Avoid Global Truss.

This is not the first time I've read a negative opinion about the Global Truss design. No one has really suggested any specific alternatives to me yet. What other truss segments should I be looking at?

1. Cranks and truss are fine, but you really need to determine load limits, etc. before attempting. You'll need to be very careful how you position everything, including the lights on the truss, so that you keep the load balanced. Depending on your experience level you may even need to consult a certified rigger to make sure you're doing it right.
2. I hate pin truss, especially Global. Bolt truss or plated truss takes longer to assemble and you will need wrenches with it, but IMO it goes together better.
3. You'll need truss adaptors for the crank stands.

The total weight of my fixtures will not exceed 120kg. Since these are all LED fixtures, my copper needs are very light. A 9 meter span of this truss is rated for about 100kg/meter UDL or 400kg centered. I have a large margin between the planned fixtures and the design limit for the truss. In reality, my system will be limited by the capacity of my crank lifts, design limit 350lb each.

If I buy truss from a different manufacturer, I would like to have similar load ratings to maintain a good margin for growth and safety. I know the load ratings include a large margin for manufacturing, stupid users, etc. but this stuff is going to cost money and use truck space either way. I do not want to go down to triangle or I-truss, even though I-truss could do the job safely, because I do not want customers to worry, and I want the truss (as well as the fixtures) to look as professional as possible within my budget. I would definitely consider square truss made by other companies though.

Truss adapters are in my original post; I understand that I need them. I also need a lot of other hardware that I am not familiar with, both for assembling the truss sections and mounting the fixtures. One advantage to using Global Truss is I can use the same dealer for all my light fixtures and the truss/hardware, so the dealer will make sure I buy all the right "little parts," and advise me on the right way to deploy everything. This doesn't mean I'll be an expert but it at least I won't be missing anything that I need to do it safely.

I noticed no one really commented on the Q-Spot 260 LED fixtures. I read a few older posts on this forum about it before posting this thread, which seemed to be positive opinions given their low price. I hope I am making a good choice here.

I will do some more reading on the Martin forums about the new Light Jockey hardware and USB license device. Thanks for the heads-up about that. I have tried the Chamsys program, offline of course, and I found it very intimidating. LJ seems to be in a middle ground between the high-end programs and very simple ones like American DJ MyDMX, at an appropriate middle-place on the UI complexity scale. This is why I think it may be the best fit for me right now.

Topics specific to mobile DJs may be better covered at DJ Chat and PSW: Lighting than here.

I intend to use this for jobs with both live bands and DJ gigs. Do you think the equipment I am considering is not suitable for my use, e.g. belongs in the wedding DJ category? That is the reason I wanted to know how to get custom gobos made, of course; but my work is about 20% DJ, 60% bar-bands and other small live gigs, and about 20% "big for me" jobs that really deserve a lot more than 4 PAR cans. I have found that hiring outside lighting contractors can be a headache and I can use my labor, buy more gear, and educate myself, and hopefully shift my business more towards the "big for me," better-paying work; and put on better shows for all my customers. Lighting is the real limiting factor in my business growth right now.

 

[len]

I didn't comment on Chauvet products because I haven't had much good experience with the few Chauvet I've used, and I haven't used that fixture, so I don't have an opinion on it.

For truss, Thomas, Applied, Tomcat, all much better. The other thing I don't like about Global is that it's symmetrical. That is, all four sides are the same. So it's really difficult to get a clean spot to hang a fixture from, unless it's a single point, like a par can would be. Even Elation lights are difficult to get hung on Global truss because the diagonals don't fall in the right spots. Yet Tomcat and all the others have diagonal stringers on the sides, internal bracing from bottom to top on heavier duty truss, and the bottom and top have straight across supports. It makes it much easier to hang moving lights.

 

[BrockTucker]

BMI is the supplier that comes to mind for a one stop to get your lifts and truss. I'm looking at their catalog now and everything you need rigging wise is on the same page. (14 and 15 if you have the 2010 catalog)

BMI Supply - Catalog Download

 

[jeffsw6]

I hope you folks won't mind me reviving this thread for context. I have spent a few dozen hours with LightJockey and its Offline Visualizer using common fixture profiles, and I think this software provides the right balance of capability vs complexity for me -- it was not hard to learn how to use, but is capable of setting and executing shows in a way that is quick and user-friendly to me.

Unfortunately, the documentation seems to leave a lot to be desired. Am I missing something? I requested fixture profiles for the instruments I am going to buy, and did receive them (after some email and waiting; the Martin forums have been down for a while) but I can't figure out how to link the LJ profiles to the Offline Visualizer profiles which the OLV folks provided me. I have read all of the documentation in the help file. I feel like this would be a common issue for users who are new to this software and ought to be covered in the manual ... what am I missing?

I did see that Chamsys and other alternative programs have been suggested. I found Chamsys to be very complex. If there is another package with similar cost, features, and learning curve to LightJockey (and its OLV) I would be willing to try something else that may have better documentation. I have not bought a LJ license/device yet (for this exact reason) so I am not too far in to change directions. Ultimately, I fear I may have to live with my Show Designer for a while until I can educate myself enough to be comfortable with more complicated software, or significantly increase my budget for software/DMX control. I am comfortable spending $1200 to drive $6k of instruments; I do not think it would be sensible to go up significantly in software budget at this time for my level of work, though.

Thanks again for your advice

 

[church]

I am surprised that no one responded to your statement about assembling the truss yourself - you can't you need help. I own 32 feet of the 12in square global truss and it weighs 36lb per 8 foot section without any cable or fixtures. To lift 32 feet onto the stands needs a minimum of four people and ideally someone to align the truss adapters. I have never had a problem with the pins however I would suggest that you insert the pins yourself and buy a brass hammer. I have also seen people screw up bolted truss by cross-threading, forgetting the washers and overtightening them - how many times have you seen a torques wrench used? I find the Global Truss works well for my application and it has better load limits than some other truss - check out the advert in PLSN for another truss manufacturer who compares their product against five others including global.

The ST157 stands are rated for 350lb so if you buy a different truss you may find other truss weighs more per stick and you do not have enough lift capacity. I know of one manufacturer whose 8 foot square 12in trus weighs 65lb per stick. The L16 lifts have better capacity.

Ultimately you need to choose based on your needs and budget. I would recommend that if possible get to see the truss and stands you want to buy and check them out first. This may mean calling around local rental companies to see what they have. It is difficult but if you can it will be helpful as truss and stands are not a cheap investment.

 

[mstaylor]

What is your adversion to end bolted triangle truss? Look at Light Action/Lightronics/Applied family of equipment. They make crank up trees that can easily be set by yourself. The triangle end plate style truss can be assembled and lifted onto the stands with one person. They use what we call moose ears that have a U shape to recieve the truss with a bolt above it once it's in place. The old style triangle that slide together are a royal pain and should never be used.
I have never used Global truss and I don't know what the football reference means. Spigoted truss can be done by yourself but is heavier so is less likely to be lifted solo, also it will limit the amount of lights used because of lift limitations. I'm sure there are other companies that can do the same thing but I have used Applied often. Of course I live halfway between the two Light Action offices.

 

[len]

As for LJ, once you have the fixtures set up, open the visualizer, and find the menu for "Read Fixture List" which should set up most fixtures. As the number of fixtures being released every day is quite large, the offline profile may not exist for your fixtures. Also, there are two files for each fixture, one does not include the visualizer information and the other does. I can't remember which is which. As for the LJ forum being down, I haven't seen that, but most of the help you get is from unpaid users so if they are slow to respond, they may have other things to do.

I've hung 32 feet of box truss on cranks by myself. Just lift one side up while the other rests on the floor. Then get the other side in. This is another reason why I don't like Global truss. All four sides have diagonal stringers instead of two sides having straight cross braces. Those heavier cross braces make hanging fixtures, especially those fixtures with two clamp points, much easier to position, and also makes getting a length of truss on cranks positioned properly. As for triangular truss, the only thing I've ever used it for is hanging drops, etc., so no experience using it with fixtures.

There is a new v-shaped truss with no third side. Can't remember who makes it and I don't know capacity of it, but it might be worth considering.

 

[meatpopsicle]

I did see that Chamsys and other alternative programs have been suggested. I found Chamsys to be very complex. If there is another package with similar cost, features, and learning curve to LightJockey (and its OLV) I would be willing to try something else that may have better documentation. I have not bought a LJ license/device yet (for this exact reason) so I am not too far in to change directions. Ultimately, I fear I may have to live with my Show Designer for a while until I can educate myself enough to be comfortable with more complicated software, or significantly increase my budget for software/DMX control. I am comfortable spending $1200 to drive $6k of instruments; I do not think it would be sensible to go up significantly in software budget at this time for my level of work, though.

Thanks again for your advice

Note that for what you are doing the chamsys software is free. With the addition of an ennetec usb/dmx adapter (@150.00us) you have 1 universe of control. this includes their LED engine. Especially if you have a couple of movers I think that this would lead you down the road to an more expandible control system . LJ has many fans and I should note that I do not have any experience with it so I'm not qualified to comment on its benefits or comparisons.

 

[mstaylor]

One downside to triangle truss is it requires actual C clamps not any type of mega clamp or cheesebourghs. The advantage is weight.

 

[Cadmium6855]

I just bought 16 Chauvet fixtures, and 4 pieces of global truss with base plates. They are amazing. The Chauvet fixtures are great, and I don't know why people wouldn't like Global Truss, I love it, its super easy to build and just great. There was a small problem with 8 of the fixtures when I originally got them, but it was a manufacturing problem and as soon as I let my retailer know, they got me the replacements within my deadline, it was just wonderful speedy and the fixtures are great. My retailer was idjnow.com it was great they sell all types of DJ equipment as well as professional fixtures and truss. For around $5- 8Gs you could get lots of nice equipment, they have the Q-spot 260 LEDs for a very low price, I bought the Q-spot 160 LEDs and they are very nice, I was gonna get the 260s but they were too expensive. If you are looking for LED par cans, Chauvet also just came out with the Slimpar series, im not sure if they have par64s but I bought 6 slimpar 56s and they are wonderful, its got an led menu screen so no dipswitches, they are only 2" deep also, they are great.