http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/31/us-romania-blast-idUSKCN0SO2UG20151031
Another nightclub fire with pyro involved and limited egress.
Another nightclub fire with pyro involved and limited egress.
Nightclub fire in Romania
- Thread starterJohnD
- Start date
JD
Well-Known Member
Saw the report. Reminds me of the Rhode Island fire. Pyro ignites flammable surroundings, climbs to the ceiling which appears to be a matchbox of flammable materials. Everybody heads for the main entrance and ends up trapped. Unclear if there really may have been other exits that did not get used such as Rhode Island.
No idea about the "blast" that is quoted in the video above, what I saw was some cellphone video from someone who was in the club when it happened.
No idea about the "blast" that is quoted in the video above, what I saw was some cellphone video from someone who was in the club when it happened.
A couple of links:
http://www.jimonlight.com/2015/10/30/more-stage-death-bucharest-stage-fire-27-dead/
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/31/world/bucharest-romania-nightclub-fire/index.html
From several reports I understand that the club was in a basement location of a former factory with a single entrance. I also wonder if the "explosion" was possibly flashover.
EDIT: Some photos from the Blueroom forums.
http://www.jimonlight.com/2015/10/30/more-stage-death-bucharest-stage-fire-27-dead/
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/31/world/bucharest-romania-nightclub-fire/index.html
From several reports I understand that the club was in a basement location of a former factory with a single entrance. I also wonder if the "explosion" was possibly flashover.
EDIT: Some photos from the Blueroom forums.
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Les
Well-Known Member
Ugh, when are clubs going to stop DIY'ing pyro...?
There are some more obscure problems with the building itself (exits, fire suppression, etc) but the three main pyro rules broken here are:
• Pyrotechnics in close proximity to combustible or flammable material (root cause)
• Pyrotechnics positioned less than 15' from audience
• Pyrotechnics positioned so that the trajectory of the effect is over spectator's heads
And speculating:
• No permit pulled
• No licensee on site
If you see any of these things at an event you're attending, get out. They're not being responsible.
There are some more obscure problems with the building itself (exits, fire suppression, etc) but the three main pyro rules broken here are:
• Pyrotechnics in close proximity to combustible or flammable material (root cause)
• Pyrotechnics positioned less than 15' from audience
• Pyrotechnics positioned so that the trajectory of the effect is over spectator's heads
And speculating:
• No permit pulled
• No licensee on site
If you see any of these things at an event you're attending, get out. They're not being responsible.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
The updated Reuters article mentions that criminal charges are being considered and also that fire and fireworks in indoor spaces need a special permit and none were issued.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/01/us-romania-blast-idUSKCN0SQ1Y520151101
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/01/us-romania-blast-idUSKCN0SQ1Y520151101
Les
Well-Known Member
I didn't come out and say they were operating illegally. Just that those things were probably not in place, legal or not. Either they need to work on their laws, or the enforcement of those laws. The 'pyro rules' I mentioned are regulations in the US but are also common-sense indicators that this was not done professionally and that the setup was unsafe.
That's quite a broad statement, akin to saying "outdoor concerts and overhead rigging should be banned". Indoor pyro can be done quite safely when a professional is involved - I mean, it is what I do for a living. Further, just because it's illegal doesn't mean people will stop doing it. Of all the mass-casualty pyro incidents I've heard about in my career, it has always been at the hands of an unlicensed shooter - which is *already illegal* throughout the US and in most/if not all developed countries.
When done correctly, the process should look like this.
Well color me not surprised.
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tjrobb
Well-Known Member
Bill- I work with an indoor arena. With our 75' noncombustible ceiling pyro can often be done safely. That being said, we are also fully sprinklered and have plenty of exits.
Lastly, flashover is often seen as an explosion to those that have never seen one. It is, literally, everything in a room reaching combustion at the same time.
Lastly, flashover is often seen as an explosion to those that have never seen one. It is, literally, everything in a room reaching combustion at the same time.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Pretty familiar with how this works, having been at days of meetings as member of NFPAs assembly occupancy committee after station fire, and having access to most documents. Pyro can be done safely indoors, but too often isn't. Making it a right, which is what the 1992 change in the codes did, assured these kind of disasters. And I hadn't noticed where outdoor concerts or overhead rigging had killed 100 people in one event. Indoor pyro compares better to terrorist attacks.
Les
Well-Known Member
I agree, since any repeated incident is "too often" in my book. However, indoor pyro is done safely probably more often than you seem to realize. My place of business produces such events no less than a dozen times per month and have done so for many years with zero accidents or near-misses; and we're just one small company in Texas.
By banning pyro, you'd only keep the legitimate companies from working. I doubt you'd stop all the garage bands in basement bars, which is where the problem is. They're already operating pyro illegally -- what makes you think a sweeping ban would stop them?
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I think that's the key point. You never hear of these problems when the pyro is being operated by a legitimate licensed company. It's the people who are already operating illegally who cause the problems. Banning indoor pyro will prevent the safe licensed companies from operating. But, a ban won't stop Billy Bob from taking a few things he bought at the reservation last 4th of July and modifying them for a real cool effect in his buddy's bar.
I think the best approach is educating everyone with the Entertainment Safety Alliance's idea of EVERYONE is responsible for safety. We as everyday technicians need to be trained, and empowered with the idea that the show doesn't have to go on and sometimes we need to say "Stop! This is unsafe". Doing so may mean you lose the gig, but it least you won't lose your life. If you go call the fire marshal, you can even save other lives. You don't want to be the guy who has to live with the guilt of knowing the pyro was a bad idea and people died because you did nothing.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
I don't see how banning this is different than banning anything else deemed too high of risk for the public good - whether it be drinking and driving, terrorism, or indoor pyro. Probably not politically correct but I'd feel better and bee safer with a ban on indoor pyro than a ban on hate speech. And maybe the cat is out but indoor pyro wasn't a problem until it was allowed by fire codes.
I find drinking and driving to not be a fair analogy. There is a process to become a legal licensed driver and a safe responsible way to drive. There is a legal way to become a drinker of alcohol and a responsible way to drink. There is no possibility of being a legal drinker and driver, because it is always unsafe.
Bill Are you saying that there is no such thing as safe indoor pyro? Are you saying that it may be possible to be safe but the risk isn't worth the reward? Or are you more at, it was safer before the law was changed. Why change a law that adds danger to a facility?
How do you feel about human flying effects or use of weapons in a show? I see these as very similar to indoor pyro. They are all inherently dangerous, but when done under the supervision of a trained professional the danger is drastically reduced. While yes there are tragedies that happen with professionals present, the vast majority of tragedies happen because they are being overseen by "Billy Bob" the rock climber/hunter who thinks he knows how to do things safely but doesn't.
Note:
@BillConnerASTC I'm not trying to argue with you or to stir up controversy with Les. I think I currently agree more with Les, but I have learned to really respect Bill's thoughts and am truly interested in fully understanding the arguments for and against.
@Les I truly respect you for walking away from the conversation without turning this into an ugly flame war. I hope to lead a calm discussion of the issue here and lay out all the arguments for consideration. I think your argument is pretty clear. You are a licensed professional. You do the job the right way following, and probably exceeding, the safety requirements of all national and local codes. Why should your safe business be punished when "Billy Bob" decides to set off roman candles in a basement with a flammable ceiling? Shutting down your company's legal activities will not stop Billy Bob's already illegal pyro from happening again.
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
I see no reason to ban indoor pyro. Like many have pointed out, banning something doesn't make it disappear, Just like the case on marijuana. They banned it, yet its still as common if not more easily accessed. The issue isn't in indoor pyro. Its the small bands that are not hiring the pro's to do it. I've worked several shows where there was a company out with the tour that solely did pyro. That's it. In fact I'm working a show today that is that exact scenario. Indoor pyro, with a qualified professional, thats sole responsibility is pyro. He works not for the artist but for the company using and setting up the pyro. He can and will tell the artist no, I'm not doing that effect tonight. He also told the fire Marshal exactly what each effect does, how high it will go, how much heat it will put out and in case of emergency strategy. He's also previewing the pyro with the fire marshal so there are no surprises. This is how its done legally. In a state that has almost no laws regarding pyro use indoors or at all for that matter.
Les
Well-Known Member
That is a perfect analogy, and I probably should have used it as opposed to the rigging example I started with. No, there are no mass-casualty incidents resulting from amateur flying acts, but it seems that we hear about fatalities at least once a year. Get on YouTube (if you dare) and witness "stage flying gone wrong". While often shown in a humorous manner, it is not funny. It is a very real problem solely because some individuals have just enough knowledge to be dangerous. It is no different with indoor pyro (except that pyro is way more regulated already).
I welcome any and all reasonable discussion, especially if others are involved. After all, this is an educational forum and I think there is education to be had in this discussion. What I don't want to happen is to have this turn in to a thread where it's just Bill and I arguing back and forth, since that's not really useful to anybody.
You are correct that my company's policies meet (and exceed) the written standards, especially where safety distances are concerned.
That's exactly how it should be, and absolutely not what took place at The Station or in Romania. The ban would put this professional out of work, but Billy Bob can't be bothered to get a license or permit - let alone pay attention to some ban.
Just to be very clear - there are certain venues which just aren't suitable for pyro. Of all the pyro gigs I've done, never has one been in a dark, cramped, and crowded bar. Sometimes we will do a site visit and say "Nope, can't do anything in here. How about some cryo jets and confetti instead? Maybe a laser show?" Unfortunately, it is rarely those types of establishments who call us in the first place. They either don't want to pay for it or they realize they aren't up to code to begin with. Those are the ones who scare me because they fly under the radar and push the limit until something very bad happens. There are already laws prohibiting them from doing it, but they either don't know or don't care.
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BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
How many people can one performer flying event kill? How many people can one indoor pyro event kill? Talk about faulty analogies. Find things that can kill 100+ people as a result of one event. Perhaps the regulation and oversight that the FFA has on commercial airlines is what is needed for indoor pyro.
And I've heard too many tell me licensing and permitting for indoor pyro is just paperwork with little scrutiny.
Gafftaper - it was harder before it was allowed as a tight, rather than having to prove it would be safe with many safeguards. The law was changed with much lobbying and money from the pyro industry. I was there, spoke and voted against the change, and lost. 10 years later 100+ people died because of the change. Ironic that the manufacture of the pyro per photos of the station was same manufacturer who was leading lobbying of code committee.
I wasn't going to reply but calling my analogies false and saying performer flying and outdoor concerts - well - its like you can't count dead bodies or they don't bother you.
And I've heard too many tell me licensing and permitting for indoor pyro is just paperwork with little scrutiny.
Gafftaper - it was harder before it was allowed as a tight, rather than having to prove it would be safe with many safeguards. The law was changed with much lobbying and money from the pyro industry. I was there, spoke and voted against the change, and lost. 10 years later 100+ people died because of the change. Ironic that the manufacture of the pyro per photos of the station was same manufacturer who was leading lobbying of code committee.
I wasn't going to reply but calling my analogies false and saying performer flying and outdoor concerts - well - its like you can't count dead bodies or they don't bother you.
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