Control/Dimming No Company Switch

[DHSLXOP]

Hi Everyone,

To preface, I know that there are liability restrictions about what can and can't be suggested in this thread. Also, if anything here requires electrical work to be done, I will hire the appropriate/trained personnel to do it, and won't be trying to make it work myself.

That said, I have a show coming into my venue that may need to run a moving light distro for its moving lights that take 208v. My venue doesn't have a company switch near the stage, so I know I don't have anywhere to tie a distro into. My dimmers are in another part of the building (no direct access to run cable), and get their power through breakers that I can't access.

Are there any options to be able to power the distro or get 208v? Thanks in advance for your feedback!

 

[MNicolai]

Depends how many movers you want to use. If just a few, any electrician can put a couple receptacles on stage for you that have 208v spitting out of them. If you need a lot, you may consider renting a generator, parking it out back, and running feeder cable from it into the building and onto the stage to the distro unit.

 

[Sean]

Hi Everyone,

To preface, I know that there are liability restrictions about what can and can't be suggested in this thread. Also, if anything here requires electrical work to be done, I will hire the appropriate/trained personnel to do it, and won't be trying to make it work myself.

That said, I have a show coming into my venue that may need to run a moving light distro for its moving lights that take 208v. My venue doesn't have a company switch near the stage, so I know I don't have anywhere to tie a distro into. My dimmers are in another part of the building (no direct access to run cable), and get their power through breakers that I can't access.

Are there any options to be able to power the distro or get 208v? Thanks in advance for your feedback!

If you can either find enough wall circuits, or if you can change a bunch of dimmer cards to non-dims/constant current then you can use these:
http://www.quick220.com/-A220-20L.html

 

[JD]

If you can either find enough wall circuits, or if you can change a bunch of dimmer cards to non-dims/constant current then you can use these:
http://www.quick220.com/-A220-20L.html

It is important to note that this device is NOT simply a reverse Y connector. It actually monitors both circuits and automatically disconnects itself if one line drops. Do not under any circumstances build your own reverse Y connector.

I suspect your best bet (and investment) would be to have a couple of 20 amp 208 volt outlets installed at the stage. It is a LOT cheaper than having a switch put in, as you are basically running standard 12/2 WG (or #12 THHN in 1/2 conduit depending on local code and type of building.) Contact a local electrician. This probably will not be the only time you run into this need.

 

[Floobydust]

Hi Everyone,

To preface, I know that there are liability restrictions about what can and can't be suggested in this thread. Also, if anything here requires electrical work to be done, I will hire the appropriate/trained personnel to do it, and won't be trying to make it work myself.

That said, I have a show coming into my venue that may need to run a moving light distro for its moving lights that take 208v. My venue doesn't have a company switch near the stage, so I know I don't have anywhere to tie a distro into. My dimmers are in another part of the building (no direct access to run cable), and get their power through breakers that I can't access.

Are there any options to be able to power the distro or get 208v? Thanks in advance for your feedback!

If there are circuit breakers that affect your shows, you should have ready access to them.
Bummer to trip one and wait a half hour for a custodian with the key.

 

[DHSLXOP]

If there are circuit breakers that affect your shows, you should have ready access to them.
Bummer to trip one and wait a half hour for a custodian with the key.

It's actually even worse than a custodian. We have to wait for public safety (I work for a high school, but we are on a college campus) to find the room and unlock it for us. They typically bring up the wrong set of keys, and then spend a while questioning why we need access.

 

[DHSLXOP]

It is important to note that this device is NOT simply a reverse Y connector. It actually monitors both circuits and automatically disconnects itself if one line drops. Do not under any circumstances build your own reverse Y connector.

I suspect your best bet (and investment) would be to have a couple of 20 amp 208 volt outlets installed at the stage. It is a LOT cheaper than having a switch put in, as you are basically running standard 12/2 WG (or #12 THHN in 1/2 conduit depending on local code and type of building.) Contact a local electrician. This probably will not be the only time you run into this need.

This would be a fairly common thing for an electrician to do, I assume? Do you know (on average) the cost of installing 208 v outlets?

 

[RickR]

There is a fairly large difference between a 208V and a 240V circuit and not just voltage. Some movers will take either and may require different internal wiring for each.

I concur that getting an electrician to install something properly will be well worth it in the long run. Costs will depend on distances and conditions as well as local rates. Some places you can't get one to show for less than $250. This could be many hundreds. Since you are on a college campus they might have staff that can/must do the work, especially small thing like this project.

 

[techieman33]

This would be a fairly common thing for an electrician to do, I assume? Do you know (on average) the cost of installing 208 v outlets?

Yeah any competent electrician should have no problem running a couple of circuits. Cost is hard to estimate, there are way to many variables to consider since we aren't familiar with your space. A 10 foot straight out from a breaker panel will be pretty reasonable. A 100 foot run through multiple walls and who knows what else could end up being pretty costly. Your just going to have to get a couple electricians out and get an estimate.

 

[Footer]

I'm going to go the other way with this one, try to get a disconnect put in.

Is this a one off show or is the university trying to turn this venue into a road house? If it is a solid one off, then just do what you need to do. If it is something that you could see happening in the future, get a disconnect put in. Idealy you would go cams, but in the short term get the power ran and do a bar end tie in. I know it is not ideal, but it will allow for more versatility down the road. Having a large "bucket" of power that is accessible onstage is always a good thing to have.

 

[SteveB]

k!

I'm with Kyle on this one that a distro is far more useful then 208v outlets, probably as cheap if not cheaper to install, especially if there's any kind of existing CB panel that could be tapped on the line side.

My thought on this is that any event bringing in ML's that need 208v need to know ASAP that it isn't available. If all the event has is 208 gear, then they are not likely to be happy having to completely bypass their existing distro and cable system. Possibly they may be able to run some of the gear on 120v, if the fixtures are of the smaller size and don't need 208. Often times we see a system of fixtures - ML's as well as LED's where only part of the rig actually needs 208, but that the entire rig is powered at 208 just cause it's simpler to stay with one voltage distro.

So it's time to communicate to the event and find out how flexible that can be.

 

[MikeJ]

Let's further elaborate on what has been posted above. If this is a one-off and you probably don't need 208/3-phase much in the future, than the answer is to rent a generator. If you foresee this to be a common need in the future, then installing a company switch is Ideal; preferably stage right, and with cam-locks. Also, the difference between a 208v outlet and a 240v outlet IS actually only voltage(and phase, but...) In most commercial/business/schools you will have 3-phase 208/120, except in some industrial settings where you will have completely useless(for us) Delta power. In residential settings you have what is known as single phase power, even though it is ambiguous because you have 2 legs of 120 that make 240v! It is known as single phase because it utilizes a center-taped transformer from one phase.

Almost all 208v fixtures can run between 200 and 240 volts, so if its only a few fixtures you can get by almost anywhere(some settings in the fixture may need to be changed)
The reason for tours, and production companies requiring 208 3-phase service, even when running all single phase equipment, is not really "staying with one voltage," it is a matter of distribution and load balance.

Three phase 208v power is 120v between any hot and ground, and 208V between any 2 hot legs. In 3-phase 208 each leg is 120 degrees out of phase, while household single phase is 180 degrees out of phase giving 240v.
If one leg of a three phase service is overloaded, it will trip the entire breaker. Furthermore, unbalanced loads will rob you of available power by overloading one leg; if one leg is overloaded, it will kill a generator easily, so most well planned systems try to load balance as much as possible.

Most PDs are wired circuts 1-6, are phase x,y,z,x,y,z, respectively, and so on and so forth. So theoretically its perfectly load balanced given the same fixture type. generally you run a soca cable, plug in 6 lights, and load balance is pretty good. Even in a rig with several different fixtures(different current draw) you can plan for reasonable balance by changing the order of your fixtures. Generally touring dimmers are wired the same way, assuming that you will circuit each color/wash/position in numerical order/by system(this minimizes soft patching in the console also, for easy one-off days.) One exception being ETC touring racks that are wired stupidly, and load balanced in the software control. Generally they are not great for tours an one-offs, plus they are needlessly heavy. Sorry Steve, It's true, great for installs though.

If you do rent a generator, make sure the rental company can deliver it, drive a ground rod, start and adjust it for you, then meter it and verify for yourself. Or be confident in doing these things yourself, and maybe save some cash.
If you need it several days, verify how long the fuel will last and if/when refueling is needed; typically this is done by the rental company.
I can recommend CAT generators, other brands not so much.

 

[StradivariusBone]

We are a HS venue that rents out fairly frequently to community groups. We recently had a touring group (mid-level Christian rock band) come in and do a show through a promoter. The promoter handled the rental of a generator and installed the ground rod himself. They required three phase and we just ran feeder up our loading dock, through our scene shop and onto stage right. I don't think the generator rental was terribly expensive, certainly a lot less than installing a company switch would have been. We rarely see groups in here with that kind of power requirement, so the generator (and freshly installed grounding rod) will be the way to go for now.

One note about the generator, I'm not sure if this is universal policy, but they would not allow him to book a generator for rental anytime prior to the day of the show. Their rationale was that if they book it out for a one-off and someone comes in who wants to rent it for 5 months, they lose out on the bigger fish. The promoter mentioned that put him in a spot for a few different shows. If you're responsible for renting it, I would start calling around.