on the outs with ins....

[Dreadpoet]

I’m not the biggest sound person…so I need a little help. I have a gb4 from soundcraft console, manual is here http://www.soundcraft.com/downloads/fetchfile.aspx?cat_id=user_guides&id=1462

and I am wanting to have 4 mics (singers) run through a compressor before it goes to the mainouts which will add line-in devices to the mix which don’t need the same treatment. I’m thinking I need put all 4 mics into a groups 1 & 2, for that the question becomes where do I plug the sound cable to send out to the compressor and where do I plug the cable to come back into the console?

 

[Footer]

You should have a group or sub out jacks in the back on the console. Make sure your groups/subs are not being send to the main output. As far as what to plug the compressor in, you have two choices. One would be to use your Aux returns. If you have the channels avaible your best bet would be to bring the compressor back through a channel just like any other input.

Now, what you are trying to do will help but it won't help everyone. You really should have a separate compressor on each vocalist. Otherwise, you run into a situation where the loudest vocalists takes everyone down.

 

[howlingwolf487]

If you look on the back of the console, you'll see the Group Outputs (on XLRs). Just above each one is an insert point (unbalanced) that you can patch the compressor into. This is also viewable on page 33 of the manual.

Compressing a subgroup is alright, and may work just fine, but the effect is usually be more noticeable than if each mic is individually compressed. Whoever is the loudest will determine when compression sets in.

 

[pmolsonmus]

First question: Why do you want to add compression?

If you're not the biggest sound guy - then compression can add a world of hurt to what you're trying to do and make it virtually impossible to fix.

Second question: Do you understand what those labels to each of the knobs mean on your compressor? If you're just knob twiddling and want to add stuff see question 1

Third question: What isn't working that you are trying to fix?

One of the best tricks I learned from a sound man years ago was to set my faders at unity gain and adjust my preamp gain to balance a set of voices. Then route those to a sub for a group gain.

If I wanted a single compressor to work with on that set of voices (I'm still not convinced you do) I would probably run it as a side chain on that sub and bring it in to taste.

Phil

 

[bishopthomas]

You should have a group or sub out jacks in the back on the console. Make sure your groups/subs are not being send to the main output. As far as what to plug the compressor in, you have two choices. One would be to use your Aux returns. If you have the channels avaible your best bet would be to bring the compressor back through a channel just like any other input.

None of this is good advice (sorry, Kyle). Please use the method that howlingwolf refers to, and READ THE MANUAL! This is THE way to compress a subgroup and no other method even needs to be discussed. I'll also agree with Phil in that if you don't know how to patch your devices then you probably aren't apt to use them correctly. If you're doing this to learn how to use a compressor then by all means, experiment. But if you are doing this for a show maybe try it out at home first to learn what happens when you turn those knobs.

 

[museav]

This is THE way to compress a subgroup and no other method even needs to be discussed.

It would probably help everyone a lot more if you explained what you see as the problem with what Kyle suggested and why it is better to use the inserts. I believe that it is always good to discuss alternatives and there is rarely "THE" way to do anything with mixing and rather what works or not for the situation. In fact, understanding the basics but being open and creative in the actual application will probably serve most people much better than being directed to do something only one way without understanding why.

For example, if you do read the manual as suggested you'll see that the GB4 has a Group/Aux 'swap' function that is primarily to allow aux sends on faders but that when enabled also swaps the inserts to the Auxes and you then have no Group inserts. So if someone is using, or may use, the 'swap' function then there could be no Group insert and in that situation Kyle's approach seems to make more sense than using the insert. So there is no one right answer, what may work best depends on the situation.

From what I have seen, putting a compressor on a group is fairly common when you have limited processing available. As already noted, it is not as good as having a compressor for each individual input and it depends on what you are trying to achieve, but it is not that unusual.

 

[Dreadpoet]

I'm using the device for limiting the loud sound as young singers try to find out how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie role tootsie pop. The menu for the night is multiple vocalist (most of the numbers are all solo's) who don't really know how to use a stick mic, I have 4 mics through 4 channels in order to make the show run smother. Though instruction is given to the singer on mic placement, it is rarely taken...so I am wanting to get a more homogenous sound.

 

[bishopthomas]

It would probably help everyone a lot more if you explained what you see as the problem with what Kyle suggested and why it is better to use the inserts.

I don't always start from Mixing for Dummies level when I give advice or recommendations, but I guess I should start. If you're bringing a subgroup back to a channel there are several recipes for disaster. First is you can easily create a nasty feedback loop by accidentally (or forgetfully) routing the "compressor channel" to the subgroup. Second, you're going through another gain stage, thus adding noise, and in the case of the GB4 also adding preamp gain. I don't know about you, but if I want makeup gain from my compressor then I'll turn the appropriate knob on the unit itself. And lastly, why would you want another volume control for the subgroup? It seems like it would only make it more difficult to keep track of, and again, add to your noise floor. "Why do I not have any vocals? The channel faders are up, the subgroup fader's up, the compressor is getting signal... Oh yeah, that stupid return channel fader isn't at unity anymore." Of course that's not a huge concern for most experienced sound guys, but why are we recommending this setup for someone who doesn't understand what an insert is for? An insert cable has a send and a return. No reason to complicate things or reinvent the wheel. There are lots of ways to send and receive signal through any mixer, but when you have the appropriate point to patch something why not use it?

For example, if you do read the manual as suggested you'll see that the GB4 has a Group/Aux 'swap' function that is primarily to allow aux sends on faders but that when enabled also swaps the inserts to the Auxes and you then have no Group inserts. So if someone is using, or may use, the 'swap' function then there could be no Group insert and in that situation Kyle's approach seems to make more sense than using the insert.

And again, reading the manual will help you determine which mode to be in in order to use the group inserts.

 

[Dreadpoet]

Thought, I might mention that I'm still a couple weeks out on curtain so I do have time to work with the tech. No, I am not a sound person...I'm a lighting tech/designer...but I'd like to beef up in this area and right now this is the area I need work on. I do know what Ins are used for, just uncertain how to apply this device to them effectively.

 

[museav]

No reason to complicate things or reinvent the wheel. There are lots of ways to send and receive signal through any mixer, but when you have the appropriate point to patch something why not use it?

The point I was trying to make was that what is appropriate or not is not necessarily a given. While running the Group out to the compressor and back into a channel does have several downsides as you noted, along with the Group/Aux swap potentially being desired I can actually envision multiple situations where having the compressed Group output run back into a channel could be desirable despite those downsides. A pretty obvious one is if you want the Group signal, in this case the compressed signal, included in any aux sends. Or if you wanted to apply a little bit of EQ to the overall Group signal, especially post compression. On the GB4 another potential reason is if you wanted to create a type of mute group that allows you to mute and unmute that Group signal with a single button.

And again, reading the manual will help you determine which mode to be in in order to use the group inserts.

I do not believe that the 'swap' function mode would necessarily be based solely on it providing a Group insert, that would have to be balanced with any desire for the functionality enabling the Group/Aux swap provides.


Okay, now that we know a little more about the application it sounds like you aren't really trying to compress multiple sources as much as trying to have the compressor available to any one of four inputs. So the points above about controlling a Group do not seem relevant. However, whether you want to route the compressed signal to any aux sends or use the Group/Aux swap function are still applicable. If neither of these applies then I agree that using the Group insert for the compressor probably makes the most sense.

 

[TimmyP1955]

Group insert - period.

I prefer to comp individual vocalists and the group - with primary compression being on the channels.

 

[museav]

Group insert - period.

Meaning that the compressed signal is only available to the main and matrix outputs, not to any Aux sends that may be used for recording, ALS, overflow areas or monitors. Just something to consider.

 

[Dreadpoet]

Thanks for the help. The compressor drastically improved our preformers. You guys comments were for the most part quite helpful. I will say this for some (not to inflame the situation) do not discourage folks from trying new technology. We are all techs here and have experence in learning new software/hardware/ and techniques in the entertainment and performing arts industry, things are learnable with guidance from fellow techs. Thanks for the help all

 

[museav]

The compressor drastically improved our preformers.

I think what you meant is clear but this is the type of comment that can easily be misleading. The compressor may have helped the result but it can not improve the performers, unless maybe you hit them with it until they made it unnecessary to have.

 

[Morpheus]

I think what you meant is clear but this is the type of comment that can easily be misleading. The compressor may have helped the result but it can not improve the performers, unless maybe you hit them with it until they made it unnecessary to have.

Wait... you mean that's not how it's used?

 

[Studio]

Wait... you mean that's not how it's used?

/hijack
What am I to hit them with if compressors are out of the question?????

 

[GreyWyvern]

What am I to hit them with if compressors are out of the question?????

Really, that could make things much more difficult!

On a more serious note though, rather than using a compressor, I much prefer to use a gate with the threshold turned all the way up. Works everytime!!!

 

[Dreadpoet]

These words have ne'er been truer spoke...the performers were dreadful and my students (techs and actors alike) are still hee hawing about how bad the performances were. That being said, at least they it didn’t sound as if one second the vocals were inaudible with the next second sounding like they were give the mic a cheap thrill as hearing aids, squalling cats, and car alarms went off left and right.

 

[mstaylor]

I have followed this thread with interest. I am like the original poster, basically a light guy, SM and rigger. I know where to put all the parts of the sound and what it is supposed to sound like coming out. It's the getting it there that I am weak at. I have just purchased an A&H 24 channel board for a sound upgrade in my arena. I will be replacing the existing Mackie that is years old. I am adding additional speakers and subs to the cluster, plus moving it to a better location. I will hang all the speakers, build the fly rig, replace all the amps and pull all the wire. Then I get a real sound company in to make it all work. I am learning a little at a time.