Opinion on Monitor Mixer

[fredthe]

The high school school I work with has been offerd a good deal ($8,000) for a lightly used Soundcraft MH3 24 channel board. They've got a good FOH console (36 channel Yamaha M7CL), and they are wondering if this would be good for a monitor mix console. They already have the splitters and wiring to an on-stage mix position, all they need is the board. I know it has fewer channels than the main board, but I don't see them needing that many channels in situations where they would use the monitor board.

So, would this be a good board for monitor mixes? Or, would something else in the same (or lower) price range be better?

-Fred

 

[jkowtko]

If you guys like the M7, why not get an LS9-32 for the monitors? It's about the same price new. I would think it gives you much more flexibility, including a portable FOH board to use when needed.

 

[rwhealey]

I love the MH3 that I used. It's a real pro-quality analog board. I think it would work very well as a monitor mixer.

However, there seem to be better deals out there- here's a 40 channel MH3 for $7800:

PSW Sound Reinforcement Forums: LAB Marketplace => FS: Soundcraft MH 3 40 + 4 tour package

 

[epimetheus]

Must be a heck of a nice school to have a M7CL @ FOH. My high school had a funkified auto-mixer in a backstage rack. Back on topic though, if they've got the budget, go with an LS9-32. If the monitor mix position is on stage (backstage I assume?), space has got to be a concern, and that is one area in which the LS9 will be the crap out of an analog board.

 

[Footer]

What type of event are you wanting to mix for? Will there always be a dedicated operator? How many mixes do you need? Do you do the exact same type of show with the same people doing the same things or does it get changed up a lot?

 

[cprted]

The high school school I work with has been offerd a good deal ($8,000) for a lightly used Soundcraft MH3 24 channel board. They've got a good FOH console (36 channel Yamaha M7CL), and they are wondering if this would be good for a monitor mix console. They already have the splitters and wiring to an on-stage mix position, all they need is the board. I know it has fewer channels than the main board, but I don't see them needing that many channels in situations where they would use the monitor board.

So, would this be a good board for monitor mixes? Or, would something else in the same (or lower) price range be better?

-Fred

If I were in that scenario, I would rather mix monitors from the M7 at FoH and spend the $8 grand on something else. But that's just me.

 

[DaveySimps]

It is a nice board, but I sort agree with the others. You would be better served by spending the cash on an LS9. How often do you even need a separate monitor board? With as many outs as the M7 has, much can be done from that board. It is a lot of money that can be used on other toys.

~Dave

 

[SHARYNF]

I would agree with the recomendations for a LS9. The advantage is you are then back in the digital world, and all the built in processing/effects will be there. It does look your school has lots of excess funds, not sure that they are best spent on a high end monitor console. I know a few schools with a DM2000 and a mackie 32-4 for monitors

Sharyn

 

[soundlight]

I also agree with the LS9-32. It's a great console, and anyone who can use an M7 can use an LS9. You'll just get frustrated when you try to tap the screen (this comes from personal experience!) and nothing actually happens because the LS9 doesn't have a touchscreen.

Also, if you ever switch over to a digital snake system, you can put the same I/O cards in the back of each console and have a digital split snake.

I still don't see why a high school that has an M7 at FOH is looking to spend 8 grand on a monitor console. Just my opinion, though.

 

[fredthe]

Thank you all for your responses. I'm not up to date on all that is available mixer wise, but I thought there might be better choices.

I appreciate the recommendation of the LS9, I agree that would be a better fit. I wish we could get a digital snake there, but everything is already in place with analog mic splitters, so that's not likely to happen. (In hindsight, it probably would have been cheaper too, considering how much wire they had to put in the walls...)

Personally, I agree with just running the monitors from the M7. I've shown a couple of the students how to do it, but some of the just don't get it.

They are only looking at a monitor board because pretty much everything else is in place for it, and someone said "hey, I've got this board..." But it would be used pretty infrequently, perhaps 2-3 times per year. They are also looking at other uses for the excess funds, such as a wireless add-on to their intercom system (only for the 2 or 3 people who need to be truely mobile during a show), or some LED fixtures for their semi-black-box space.

This is a public school, but the parents are very supportive of their fund raising activities, and the principal is supportive of the theater. They did a full renovation of the theater 2 1/2 years ago, and they are looking at the "nice to have" extras. They got the M7 as an upgrade to the analog board that was originally spec'd because someone in the school thought it would be better, and managed to get the funds to pay for it outside of the construction budget .

I will add that it's really nice having the digital mixer there. It's located in the house, but when there's not a need for a dedicated sound person, we can just use the software to run it remotely from the booth.

-Fred

 

[epimetheus]

If they can't run monitors from the M7CL, how are they going to be able to do it any better from a dedicated monitor board? Is it the layer concept that they don't comprehend?

Based on what you've said, I agree with the recommendation to spend that money elsewhere. I'm not sure what your wireless mic setup is like, but that's generally always available for improvement.

BTW, I like the idea of running the board from the booth when a dedicated sound person is not required. I'm going to bring that up for the new worship center design my church is working on.

 

[fredthe]

Based on what you've said, I agree with the recommendation to spend that money elsewhere. I'm not sure what your wireless mic setup is like, but that's generally always available for improvement.

They're up to 12 permanent wireless mics, but they usually rent another 12 to 16 for the large musicals. They already have plans to bring the installed base up to 16 (at which point they run out of patch panel and rack space)

BTW, I like the idea of running the board from the booth when a dedicated sound person is not required. I'm going to bring that up for the new worship center design my church is working on.

Conversly, there are also times we've run the lighting console (Strand Light Palette) remotely from a laptop by the sound board. It's great to have flexibility.

(And, before you start, they got the Light Palette only because the contract was awarded right before Strand dropped their old product line... and when it came time to deliver something, the Light Palette Classic was the only board that Strand had that met the bid criteria )
-Fred

 

[museav]

I think the MH3 would be a good choice, especially as it does have the ability to put the aux and group sends on faders, something you really want for monitor use. And with 12 aux/monitor buses it should support most applications. 8 VCA groups, 8 mute groups, snapshot automation, MIDI control and so on. The downside would primarily seem to be not having full automation or onboard processing and effects. Balancing that might be a great opportunity to learning to operate an analog console as well as the digital FOH console. I think that learning to mix on both analog and digital consoles is a huge advantage (and only learning one or the other a huge disadvantage for quite some time to come).

As far as mixing monitors from FOH, it certainly can be done but in some situations it can put a lot of extra load on both the console and the operator. Having the option for a separate monitor mix, and to learn all three roles (FOH only, monitor only and combined), seems to have potential benefits.

I am curious about the comments in running it from the booth when a dedicated operator is not required. That essentially just seems to represent giving a virtual representation of the mixer at a different location, it isn't changing the functionality or skill set required to operate and would seem to require the same technical and mix skills, if not higher, than mixing with the work surface. Being able to mix remotely certainly has potential advantages but for most consoles I do not see it necessarily relating to simplifying the operation, more just having freedom in where the operator is located and with some systems not requiring the physical space for the work surface.

 

[fredthe]

Brad, you do make a good point on having both analog and digital boards available to learn on, and this is certanly an educational environment. We do have smaller Mackie boards as part of the video system, and in the TV studio... but I can see where an analog board for monitors may add to the educational experience.

I am curious about the comments in running it from the booth when a dedicated operator is not required. That essentially just seems to represent giving a virtual representation of the mixer at a different location, it isn't changing the functionality or skill set required to operate and would seem to require the same technical and mix skills, if not higher, than mixing with the work surface. Being able to mix remotely certainly has potential advantages but for most consoles I do not see it necessarily relating to simplifying the operation, more just having freedom in where the operator is located and with some systems not requiring the physical space for the work surface.

They typically use the "remote mixing" for things like lectures... You only need one or two Mics, but someone needs to be in the booth to run lights, the video system for presentations, etc. These events tend to run on a crew of 1, so it's good to be able to remote the console. For anything more than that (or if the speaker is someone like the school superintendant) they've got someone at the board.

-Fred

 

[TimmyP1955]

Monitors from FOH.

If separate mixer, LS9.

How much monitor mixing do you need? As a general rule, the only things that should be in the monitors are the music tracks (if no live orchestra) or just those few instruments from the orchestra that are needed for pitch and timing (piano + ?). It is usually counterproductive to have the cast in the monitors (among other things, being in the monitors causes them to reduce their already poor projection).

 

[rwhealey]

High school theaters do a lot more than musical theater! In fact, my high school did one musical a year and had events every week. We had a church with a modern-style band rent the whole summer that would have benefited tremendously from a separate monitor board.

 

[Footer]

What events would this console be used for exactly?

 

[fredthe]

Kyle,
The console would be used for one musical a year, plus spossibly the occasional rock band. I talked with the TD, and he admitted that the main reason he was even considering this was because "the director wants it." He agrees that it's not the best way to use funds, but if the director insists, and comes up with the money, at least I've got some good options to suggest.
(This is the same director who insists there's a "Magic Microphone" that can be used to amplify the chorus so they can be heard over the orchestra during the musicals... but that's another thread )

-Fred

 

[jkowtko]

If you've got $8k to burn and students to teach, why don't you split it and get both an analog and digital board? The LS9-16 clocks in around $4k, and a GL2800-24 about the same ... probably two great boards to teach on, and they're both portable

 

[DigitalDJ21]

At the high school I work at we've had a M7CL - 48CH for three years now. We've been running all our monitors right off the M7, it's perfect because it's got 16 OMNI-outs, I'm not sure about the 32 version but I believe it also has just as may mixes, omnis', and matrixes available.