Potential of scaffold ladder tipping in this scenario

Dagger

Active Member
in this setup person x ( w/ harness) is on top of a scaffold ladder (20-25 ft) and would have to reach outside as shown in drawing (location A)
Scenario without a ground person

1. Would that ladder tip over if person x is in location A? B? C( approx 10ft off ground)

2. Lets assume ladder cannot be pushed. Is using person Y a must?
20230920_191739.jpg
 
And at 25 ft, the scaff should have outriggers.
 
Who the H is dumb enough to NOT climb on the inside of scaffolding??? Where the H did common sense go???
 
Scaffold system should have outriggers at that height (3:1 rule -- for a scaffold 25 ft tall, the smallest dimension of the base should be minimum 8'-4" wide), but it should also not be used like you are describing.

I wouldn't rely on a harness to make this any safer. Someone on the ladder frame at the top of the scaffold who falls is going to pull the scaffold down on top of themselves if the scaffold is what they're tethered to instead of appropriate structure.

The best way to do this would be to platform and guardrail off the top of the scaffold, with outriggers at the base, and have the person reach out from within the safety of the guardrails. That is, without climbing on the guardrail. If that does not work for the access you need, then you should find another solution. If a 25ft ladder is truly what you need, then you should buy a 25ft ladder. If the terrain/obstacles don't make that viable, even with the taller versions of the Little Giant, then you should use a scissor lift with an extension platform.

You really should get training from a qualified person/entity on scaffolding erection and safety before proceeding. You're approaching this like a physics/center-of-gravity mathematics exercise, which fundamentally it is, but unless you're a Professional Engineer designing a scaffold installation, you shouldn't be doing math to analyze the center of gravity -- you should only be using the system within the manufacturer's guidelines, training you've received from a competent person/entity, and any applicable regulations for your region.
 
Scaffolding should never rely on organic <human> counterweight, Hell, nothing should. (except maybe belaying). If you need to get to that elevation there should be another layer of floor and a railing.
 
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OSHA has specific rules related to PFAS and scaffold, including anchorages.
They do, however 1926.431(g)(3) requires that the provisions of section 1926.502(d) be followed for all fall arrest systems on scaffolding. 1926.502(d)(15) contains the requirement that all fall arrest anchorages be capable of supporting 5000lbs.
Now given that this is potentially indoors a independent anchorage could be used however that is beyond the scope of an internet discussion.
 
I assume you mean 1926.451 (Scaffolds), and within that it allows for attachement to structural members of the scaffold with some prerequisites. Also the 5k anchorage is for an uncertified anchorage, you can have a qualified person design a certified anchorage of 2x the MAF.
 
@Dover, OSHA is likely a bit of moot point here. IIRC, Dagger lives in Canada, so the rules will vary there. He should take a scaffolding training course to become familiar with his local regs.
 
Not like its been beaten to death around here, but how often do y'all follow all of the proscribed safety code when working on ladders?

Like, are you the kind of person to climb down off the ladder and insist that your employer go out and rent an articulating lift, rather than kinda just reaching a little bit further out beyond the ladder footprint to finish the task?
 
Not like its been beaten to death around here, but how often do y'all follow all of the proscribed safety code when working on ladders?

Like, are you the kind of person to climb down off the ladder and insist that your employer go out and rent an articulating lift, rather than kinda just reaching a little bit further out beyond the ladder footprint to finish the task?

I'm sure most of us have cut some corners on ladder safety when we were young and thought we were invincible. But that's on us to decide for ourselves as it comes up. There's no way I would ever advise someone else to do something that might possibly put them at risk though. And especially not over the internet when there's no way I could fully understand the situation.
 
Not like its been beaten to death around here, but how often do y'all follow all of the proscribed safety code when working on ladders?

Like, are you the kind of person to climb down off the ladder and insist that your employer go out and rent an articulating lift, rather than kinda just reaching a little bit further out beyond the ladder footprint to finish the task?
If you mean, what stupid **** was I taught to do like standing on the railings of a single-man Genie without a harness because I was 16 and being exploited by a roadhouse that routinely rolled any hours over 40 into the following week to avoid paying overtime and used high schoolers because they were cheap? Yes, I was once that person.

Now, I know better.

I was on a construction site in Nashville circa 2014 closing out an amphitheater project. Happened to be there for safety week and was the anointed one from our team to participate in spending all day in the job trailer watching safety videos with a representative from every contractor on the site. Almost every single person in that group had watched one of their buddies die on the job because of something entirely preventable. If the ambulance had a jet turbine for an engine and gotten there faster it still wouldn't have mattered. When they told their stories, you could see the trauma in their eyes like it had happened just yesterday when for some of them it was 10-20 years ago. They remember the exact jobsite they were on and the images of their friends and coworkers bleeding on the ground are still burned into their retinas. Almost always, it was due to slips, trips, and falls.

Do I still occasionally stand on the top of an 8ft ladder? Sure, maybe a couple times a year.

Do I still tempt fate at 25ft off the ground reaching out to do something that, in my mind, I've convinced myself is going to be much easier one-handed than it actually ends up being. F%%% no.

Safety is a game of odds. Do something stupid once or twice -- you'll probably be fine. Do it over, and over, and over again -- and eventually it will catch up to you. Could be that day you have a headache, could be a loud noise that catches you off-guard, could be a messy break-up on your mind, your kid failed their last test at school, or any number of other things that distracts you for the brief moment you become the statistic. Maybe you won't die, but you could still be seriously injured in a way that will impact the rest of your career and your life. There is no task, on any particular day, on any particular project, for any particular employer, that is worth that. Unless you happen to work for mountain rescue or the military and putting your life at risk for the potential of saving a thousand over your career is baked into the job description. The entertainment industry isn't saving anyone's lives. If you go down, your legacy gets memorialized in an OSHA report -- not on a plaque or with a service medal.
 
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Here's a fresh reminder I just saw on reddit of what can happen when you go up the ladder for that quick simple task and don't bother with all the safety precautions.
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I'm no expert. But I've worked with scaffolds a couple of times at different locations. Each time I started by going to my local scaffold dealer and talking with them about how to design a scaffold that met my needs and was also safe. So my recommendation is to call a few scaffold companies near you, explain what you want to do, and ask them to help you figure out how to do it safely.

Here in Seattle I've worked with Berg Equipment. They have a nice page full of safety information. https://bergscaffold.com/safety-information/
 

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