Power Problems...

[RadaMagic]

Ok. So I made a post yesterday about switching to LEDs due to power issues, but for my budget, the LEDs I wanted wont be strong enough, so I am probably stuck with conventional fixtures.

Here is what we do. We are a touring illusion show, we play high school auditoriums and low budget theatres (as rentals). We do the occasional bare hall as well. We are meant to be completely self contained. We have run into some problems with some of the places we are performing...we blow the breaker.

Here is what we run:

2 - 250w Moving Head Lights (Microh Arena Profiles)
4 - Par 56 300w
4 - Par 38 150w

2 speaker sound system, sound board, wireless microphone, fogger/hazer.

So essentially we can consume a fair amount of power. What we do is try to plug 4 par cans into an outlet....4 par cans into a different outlet and the moving heads into a different outlet etc; thus trying to evenly distribute the power to prevent the breaker blowing and putting too much power into one circuit (if my terminology is wrong im sorry lol -- I perform magic for a living haha).

We've gone into some buildings, not had any problems and others had to eliminate the MHs because it was too much. We usually run the lights and everything else for a good 40 minutes to ensure nothing will blow before starting the show.

I've looked into Power Distros, but am not too good with that stuff and Im not sure I really want to get into something that is going to overload my brain and be complicated. Plus I hear that you might have to have an electrician come and plug it into certain breakers for you.
Furthermore the places we play, the breaker box is often quite a distance away and we are only in a venue for less than 8 hours...

Any alternatives or ideas you can suggest? If you recommend a certain product or something like that, can you provide a link to it somewhere....

I dont have the biggest budget for this either, so keep that in mind.

Thx.

 

[SHARYNF]

If your design is such that you are using the Pars for color and then the MHs as intelligent spot lights, then IMO led pars would work. I have used the WDM units about a dozen of them with some 250W discharge MHs and it works well
Probably the issue you are running into is that the outlet you are connecting to is probably also supplying some other devices.

Sharyn

 

[RadaMagic]

No, I am using the Pars for lighting the front of the stage, the moving heads are for color and they are at the back of the stage...

I still need some power suggestions to my problems...

thx

 

[mstaylor]

It sounds like you need to specity in your rider what you need for power. You are pulling very little power for your lights and should probably need only two 20 amps receptacles. All eight PARS are only pulling 15 amps. The sound I can't speak to, no info, but you probably only need one or two 20 amp circuits for that.
As SHARYNF said, it sounds like you are getting circuits that aren't seperate or has other things on it that you are unaware of.

 

[BillESC]

What is your budget?

You could probably get your front lighting from two or four Chauvet Colorstrips.

 

[icewolf08]

Essentially, what you are doing is a correct approach, however, not all buildings are wired the same. You can't assume that every outlet is connected to its own circuit. It is a safer (though not always true) assumption that all the outlets on one wall are on the same circuit, and thus each wall would be a separate circuit. Again, every building is different so you shouldn't make too many assumptions.

You can buy a circuit tracer so that you can find out if outlets are on the same circuit. Usually they have one device that you plug into an outlet and a wand that you run down the breaker box with and it beeps when you get to the circuit. If you really want to be able to find out how many circuits you have to work with, you might pick up one of these tools and learn how to use it. It also never hurts to just ask the people from the venue if they know which outlets are on different circuits.

 

[mstaylor]

You may also want to get an electrian to build you a simple distro that would have a range plug or something common to use when they have it available. It would save a ton of cabling. There places on the internet to get the same thing already made. You would still have to do the individual circut thing parttime but maybe not all the time.

 

[mrb]

You may also want to get an electrian to build you a simple distro that would have a dryer plug or something common to use when they have it available. It would save a ton of cabling. There places on the internet to get the same thing already made. You would still have to do the individual circut thing parttime but maybe not all the time.

not to be rude, but that is bad advice.

A distro assembled by an electrican or from some guy on the internet is not going to be UL listed. I have seen many, many distros that are just downright scary. If the guy needs a distro (doesnt even seem like he does) then he should be purchasing a properly listed unit such as something from LEX, Motion Labs, etc.

And a dryer plug is the last thing a distro should plug into -there is no neutral. Maybe you are thinking of a range plug? (NEMA 14-50; 50amp 125/250v, 4 wire)

 

[TimMiller]

Your setup is pretty basic i would not suggest a distro. Its a whole can of worms in itself and a lot of places dont have a place where you can just simply plug one in. Your best bet is doinging what you are doing, and if you end up tripping a breaker, before resetting it, find another plug that is still working, then take one of your plugs (ie you two movers) and plug it into that circuit that is still working. Then reset the breaker and see where you can go from there.

 

[mstaylor]

not to be rude, but that is bad advice.

A distro assembled by an electrican or from some guy on the internet is not going to be UL listed. I have seen many, many distros that are just downright scary. If the guy needs a distro (doesnt even seem like he does) then he should be purchasing a properly listed unit such as something from LEX, Motion Labs, etc.

And a dryer plug is the last thing a distro should plug into -there is no neutral. Maybe you are thinking of a range plug? (NEMA 14-50; 50amp 125/250v, 4 wire)

Yes, you are correct and I have changed my post to reflect that. I did say he could buy already assembled distros on the internet. Also, a lisenced electrician should certainly built a simple drop distro. I agree that it wouldn't be UL approved but neither is any cable we build ourselves.

 

[mrb]

Also, a lisenced electrician should certainly built a simple drop distro. I agree that it wouldn't be UL approved but neither is any cable we build ourselves.

A licensed electrican may certainly not build a distro (as they typically do from a breaker panel and outlet boxes). Portable power distribution equipment must be listed under UL1640. Somehting cobbled together from a breaker panel screwed to a piece of wood with 4S boxes and receptacles on the sides does not pass muster -even if assembled by an electrican. Is it done all the time? Yes. Is it right? No. Is it safe? Depends on too many factors to begin discussing here.

Cables we assemble ourselves do not require listing, provided they are constructed of listed materials by a Qualified Individual.

*going off the top of my head as far as osha regs on cable construction, anyone better qualified -please feel free to correct me.

I realize you said power distros can be purchased off the internet, but I felt that needed some clarification for there are 10 places selling unlisted gear for every one that is. There are actually not that many companies manufacturing UL1640 gear designed for the entertainment industry. The entry cost is huge, and its not all that profitable.

One of the better solutions for a power distro for users who dont need a ton of power is a simple construction style spider box. Leviton, Hubbell, CEP, and others make these. Theyre relatively cheap, and the best part is the 50amp twistlock feeder cable can be rented pretty much anywhere cheaply.

 

[church]

an interesting topic and interesting to see how things vary from one country to another. In Ontario you can build a distro but to be electrical code compliant you need a "field evaluation" sticker. Provided you build it to meet and preferably exceed code requirements; and the workmanship will pass muster then the inspector will attach the approval sticker. Of course you have to pay the inspection fee and the sticker fee. This process at least allows us to deal with the recurring problem that a significant amount of professional equipment (not just theatre and sound equipment) coming into Canada does not come with Canadian approval and cannot be used unless it passes a field inspection.

the field inspection is not a rubber stamping operation either. I recently had some very expensive microwave amplifiers that had UL ratings and required modifications to the internal fusing and grounding before the inspector would issue the sticker.

I know that the regular readers on this site on the Canadian side of the border already know this but others may not be aware that in these days of Ebay offering U.S. sources of more competitively priced gear much of which only has a U.L. listing and cannot be used in Canada without an inspection. Always check with an advertiser to confirm the gear has a Canadian approval or be prepared to pay for the inspection.

 

[SHARYNF]

A licensed electrican may certainly not build a distro (as they typically do from a breaker panel and outlet boxes). Portable power distribution equipment must be listed under UL1640. Somehting cobbled together from a breaker panel screwed to a piece of wood with 4S boxes and receptacles on the sides does not pass muster -even if assembled by an electrican. Is it done all the time? Yes. Is it right? No. Is it safe? Depends on too many factors to begin discussing here.

Cables we assemble ourselves do not require listing, provided they are constructed of listed materials by a Qualified Individual.

*going off the top of my head as far as osha regs on cable construction, anyone better qualified -please feel free to correct me.

I realize you said power distros can be purchased off the internet, but I felt that needed some clarification for there are 10 places selling unlisted gear for every one that is. There are actually not that many companies manufacturing UL1640 gear designed for the entertainment industry. The entry cost is huge, and its not all that profitable.

One of the better solutions for a power distro for users who dont need a ton of power is a simple construction style spider box. Leviton, Hubbell, CEP, and others make these. Theyre relatively cheap, and the best part is the 50amp twistlock feeder cable can be rented pretty much anywhere cheaply.

can you reference where in the NEC it says that these must be UL LISTED. It is one thing to build something to UL 1640 which provides extensive guidelines, and to build it using UL listed components, but AFAIK I have never seen anything that REQUIRES it to be actually UL LISTED. In many cases UL LISTING may reduce the requirement to inspect the unit, but again AFAIK there is no Requriement for UL listing. So an electrician using UL listed components typically the panel/breakers could build a distro.

NEC is also a guideline, that is referenced and specified and enforced to varying degrees with local codes. Typically it is the local code/ inspector that has the last say. That said personally I use LEx pagoda systems because they are excellent, inexpensive (relatively) and small and light weightm and they are Listed

Again that has been my experience, but then again I do live and work out in the bush so to speak
Sharyn

 

[Kelite]

Ok. So I made a post yesterday about switching to LEDs due to power issues, but for my budget, the LEDs I wanted wont be strong enough, so I am probably stuck with conventional fixtures.


I dont have the biggest budget for this either, so keep that in mind.

This makes perfect sense, RadaMagic. You enjoy entertaining the crowd and have an eye on your budget. Bravo!
Just for an idea, check our Doug Fleenor Designs' wireless LED fixture Doug Fleenor Design - Battery Wireless LED100 that derives it's power from an onboard battery. Since you mentioned having 40 minutes or so to 'let the lights run' prior to the show, you may charge the batteries prior to each performance and keep them close to the stage area for maximum illuminance.

This may not be a cure-all idea, that's OK. We swap ideas around here to better think our way through lighting and scenery challenges, allowing us to think on the fly and better prepare for next time.

 

[mrb]

can you reference where in the NEC it says that these must be UL LISTED. It is one thing to build something to UL 1640 which provides extensive guidelines, and to build it using UL listed components, but AFAIK I have never seen anything that REQUIRES it to be actually UL LISTED. In many cases UL LISTING may reduce the requirement to inspect the unit, but again AFAIK there is no Requriement for UL listing. So an electrician using UL listed components typically the panel/breakers could build a distro.

NEC is also a guideline, that is referenced and specified and enforced to varying degrees with local codes. Typically it is the local code/ inspector that has the last say. That said personally I use LEx pagoda systems because they are excellent, inexpensive (relatively) and small and light weightm and they are Listed

Again that has been my experience, but then again I do live and work out in the bush so to speak
Sharyn

Never said it had anything to do with NEC. OSHA requires equipment to be listed, and most jurisdictions have language in their municipal codes (or equivalent laws) which state 'any equipment sold, rented, or used must be listed by UL or a NRTL). This is often duplicated in most fire codes, then there are Venue's individual regulations. Show up in a large theater or convention center in LA with a home made distro and the fire department is going to shut you down. Show up in Vegas or NYC with one and the guys from the venue will throw your distro (and you) in the dumpster before the FD has a chance to shut them down.

With regard to field listings, I had a long discussion with intertek about this the other day, and it is not possible to obtain a field evaluation on a portabe piece of equipment. Dont know how that applies to field evaluation in canada.

 

[church]

the Canadian and Provincial electrical codes specifically allow for field inspection and approval of equipment in the Ontario Code it is Rule 2-024 which provides for the alternative approval methods. I have also attached the link to the Electrical safety Authority website on this topic to provide illustration:

Electrical Safety Authority Product Approval Requirements

You can also follow this to the approved inspection marks and you will see that a simple UL mark is not included - the cUL, ULC or cULus variants are accepted. Only a couple of these organisations perform field evaluation as described under rule 2-024(3) and 2-028

However this is worthy of note if you are touring a rig from the U.S. into Canada or importing equipment into Canada.

I have seen example of field evaluation stickers on individual hanging light fixtures above resteraunt tables.

 

[mrb]

the Canadian and Provincial electrical codes specifically allow for field inspection and approval of equipment in the Ontario Code it is Rule 2-024 which provides for the alternative approval methods. I have also attached the link to the Electrical safety Authority website on this topic to provide illustration:

Electrical Safety Authority Product Approval Requirements

You can also follow this to the approved inspection marks and you will see that a simple UL mark is not included - the cUL, ULC or cULus variants are accepted. Only a couple of these organisations perform field evaluation as described under rule 2-024(3) and 2-028

However this is worthy of note if you are touring a rig from the U.S. into Canada or importing equipment into Canada.

I have seen example of field evaluation stickers on individual hanging light fixtures above resteraunt tables.

thank you for the info.

 

[fredthe]

Show up in Vegas or NYC with one and the guys from the venue will throw your distro (and you) in the dumpster before the FD has a chance to shut them down.

Interesting... my (limited) experience in Vegas was with a venue-provided distro, and I don't believe it was UL listed. (It certanly wasn't listed for outdoor use, which is where it was being used; not to mention that we kept tripping the breaker... not due to excessive current draw, but the fact that it was sitting in the direct sun and was getting hot enough to trip.)

-Fred

 

[mrb]

Interesting... my (limited) experience in Vegas was with a venue-provided distro, and I don't believe it was UL listed. (It certanly wasn't listed for outdoor use, which is where it was being used; not to mention that we kept tripping the breaker... not due to excessive current draw, but the fact that it was sitting in the direct sun and was getting hot enough to trip.)

-Fred

and one can drive drunk and get away with it, but not a good idea....

I saw a casino purchase, install, and subsequently have to remove a six figure laser system because it was not UL listed (had nothing to do with Laser, it was the electrical)

edit: six figure meaning, $xxx,xxx.xx in price.

 

[mrb]

Here is an example of a listing requirement. This is from the City of Los Angeles Municipal Code. Where they say 'approved by the Department' they dont mean an inspector can say "yeah thats ok", the City operates its own testing lab which can approve equipment for use in the City.


No person shall sell, offer for sale, advertise, or display for sale, dispose of by way of gift, loan, rental, lease or premium, or install or use any “equipment,” as defined in Article 100 of the C.E.C., unless that equipment has been approved by the Department.

EXCEPTION: Equipment listed by an approved laboratory, provided the label, symbol or other identifying mark of the approved laboratory is affixed to the equipment and further provided that the equipment is installed and used in conformance with its listing and this Code. (Amended by Ord. No. 176,775, Eff. 8/1/05, Oper. 8/1/05.)