Purchasing a new lighting console

[Clint Self]

Hi there!

I'm the Lighting Director for a multi-campus church, and we're looking into upgrading our lighting consoles.

Our stages are pretty similar - many LED strips, moving and non-moving LED pars, moving intelligent lights, and many Lekos & 2Ks, as well as house lighting. We also have hazers and some blinders. Here's a picture of one of our stages, normally lit:

We're looking into purchasing a new console. We now have an Avolites Pearl Expert. It's a great console, but NOT AT ALL user-friendly. We work with a lot of volunteers who don't get much time for training, so it's important that we have an easy-to-use console.

We've narrowed it down mainly to two consoles:

1. ETC Eos Ti
2. Jands Vista L5

While we want a console that is easy to use, we also want a board that gives us a lot of options for programming.

I'm needing some advice on which may be better for us. I'm mainly a fan of command-line interface, but I'm open to whatever - as long as it's easy to teach!

Thanks in advance! All input is welcome!

 

[Dane Boulton]

Hi!

Im no expert on either of the consoles you have suggested as a possible purchase.
But just to give a bit of input.

Magic Sheets on the EOS and ION line of consoles by ETC is fantastic and it makes it easy for people who aren't the biggest experts on command line or interface consoles to work in a very visual way.

If you are unaware of what magic sheets are a quick google will lead you to videos provided by ETC explaining it all.

But basically it is an interactive graphical layout of your venue featuring everything from which fixtures are where, And even the position of lighting bars and stage elements.
The fixtures on your magic sheet which can have different colours or shapes to represent what kind of fixture or whether it has a gel in it etc. can then be linked to fixtures in your patch.

This allows you to click on a fixture in your magic sheet and easily control its parameters making bringing up this specific light or that bank of lights easy for people who might not be familiar with keying in fixtures on a command line.

The EOS is also an extremely powerful console with lots of software updates and support.

The Vista is great console also but when it comes down to it the EOS gets my Thumbs Up,

 

[Pie4Weebl]

I would save the money and just get a few of your key volunteers training on the avo. There is no reason you can't have a solid punt page and some basic pallets set up for those with less experience...

 

[jamesh]

Does your Stage lighting setup's change regularly or mostly stay the same?

Do you need to re-program each week or if the rig stays the same, could you use the same base show which operators could add their own programming/mods to each time?
Or are you looking for something much more simple almost like a kiosk type mode where the show is pre programmed and users are just given some well labelled faders and executors for control?

I'd be surprised if you couldn't get the above all working happily for your operators on your existing Pearl Experts, but If you really don't get along with them I'd definitely try the other console's out first before committing to one.
I'm sure both Jands and ETC will offer you a demo of a console.

If you've not already had a look at the ChamSys console range and would consider looking at another range of consoles, do let me know and we'll see if we can organise a demo for you and get you some more information on MagicQ.

 

[Jbum123]

While I love the Vista, that's A LOT of desk for what you are doing with it.
The great thing about the Vistas is that they all operate and program basically the same.
Your money would be better spent on a S or l3 especially if your operators are timid in any way with a desk that big.
Jands will most definitely provide you with a demo.

 

[soundlight]

1) Both of those consoles are way more $$ than you need to spend. They're at the far top-end of their respective lines, and while fantastic, you could easily be spending under half that for a good console. Should you want to go with ETC, look at the GIO or at an Ion with appropriate wings. I love the form factor of the GIO, great console to program on. Should you want to go with Jands Vista, there are loads of smaller options (as mentioned above). Check them out.

2) Have your Pearl Experts been updated to the Titan software? I've only had limited experience with it, but the Titan software (especially if you have a big ol' touchscreen over your console) is pretty fantastic. Spend some time with that if you can. If you haven't had them upgraded to Titan yet and they're still running the old Pearl software, then look in to that! It's a completely different desk once you make the upgrade. I think that there's a small hardware upgrade required as well if you hvae an original Expert and not the Titan model, but that's far less than the cost of a new desk. With every single fader on that desk able to be an executor, it should be completely doable to have enough looks for volunteers to grab whatever they want.

3) If you still want to replace your console, have a look at the Martin M1/M6. If you want absolutely the easiest desk to teach anyone, that's what I'd recommend. I've taught on many platforms, ETC, Hog, MA, Chamsys MagicQ, Martin M1/M6/M-PC, and various others that I don't remember and various PC programs. Two things about the Martin M-Series stand out: to start using it, I did not have to touch the manual. I wasn't the only one, anyone else who'd programmed on MA and/or Hog picked up how to program on the M1 faster than anything else they'd ever started using cold before. You just have to check the manual when you start doing more advanced stuff, and then only briefly. Plus, the M1 is one of the least expensive pro-level consoles out there. The M1 has far fewer idiosyncrasies than the ETC line or the Vista line, or even Chamsys or Hog in my mind. Not that any of those consoles aren't good, but as far as learning a desk cold and ease of teaching it to others while also having a very powerful interface and loads of playback, the M1 wins in my book.

 

[James Feenstra]

I'd be more than happy to pass your information on to one of our reps for a demo Jands console

I'm somewhat biased (being a long term Jands user and the North American support rep), so I'll leave you to your own decision on what desk will work best for you

Always available to answer vista questions though- 416-255-9494 or [email protected]

 

[ChamSysUSA]

Hi Clint:

Just wanted to get you my contact details if you would like to chat directly about ChamSys MagicQ consoles.

772-410-5762 [email protected] I'm based in Florida.

We have many churches using our gear to solve the same needs as yours. I'm happy to show you how, either in a demo over the web, get you one of our dongles so you can try it out with your gear, or I can put you in touch with a dealer local to you for a live demo. I also teach our training classes and have had volunteers with limited experience overtaking and helping the "pros" by lunchtime the first day.

Regards

Phil

 

[TechGeek]

I would do for a used RoadHog3 or you can do a RoadHog4 or Elation/Highend HedgeHog4

The hog system to me is extremely user friendly and the ability to be able to record numerous positions, groups, colors, and cue lists it's a no brainer.

I have to leave work for a few days for personal problems and my co-worker who I'm training how to use the hog who has never even touched one picked up the base of the system in maybe an hour or two.

If you have volunteers the ability to record Scenes on the hog and quickly recall them on the touch screens is great because they give the user a bit of a plate to build on. I'm using a RoadHog3 now for my theater to run 8 led pars, 8 movers, 3 lekos, 4 channels of house lights, and a hazer... I know, it sounds like over kill but with RoadHog3 having 2 built in touch screens with an onboard color picker, effects engine, and prebuilt pallets it made my life easy to program 4 shows in one week all consisting of at least 100cues.

I love when concert nights come because I can use the 10 faders as IPCB's and set things like Red, Green, and Blue color on each one for the stage LEDs and the same for the cyc LEDs and quickly mix colors and then have effects on others so I don't need to try and program a concert in an hour.

I know the hedge hog is around $6,000 and is good for small and touring applications, but you'll need a Roadhog most likely.


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[DuckJordan]

Can't stand hog, seen way too many fail for stupid reasons. Also seen them react strangely with house dimmer systems.

 

[Timothy A. Samuelson]

I'm an avid supporter of the ChamSys line. I am currently in the process of installing 3 ChamSys setups in a private school that has many of the same concerns as you do. Price point and ease of use were the selling points for the administration. Also, the ability to teach on it. I can give the kids a plot, have them program it at their computers at home, come to class and put their design on stage. If I were you, I'd contact Phil and at least try and get a demo. You'll fall in love.

 

[TechGeek]

I've never had a problem using Hog before. I've used it in many different situations considering I work for a rental and production company.


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[techieman33]

The Hog II had tons of problems, and was known to constantly fail. It wasn't uncommon for me to see a tour carrying 2 or even 3 backup consoles because they had so many problems with them. The newer consoles haven't had any major problems that I know of.

 

[TechGeek]

Ya that's the 2. I'm talking about the RoadHog3 not Wholehog2. I wouldn't even recommend the WholeHog2 because they dropped support on it all together including parts and service.


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[MikeJ]

Hog sucks for anything that is not thoroughly cued out. Punt page on a hog? Forget it. The hog is too limited, but I hear that the Hog4 has a lot of new features, like replacing the number 3, with a number 4.

Either train people on the Avo, and considering that the it is pretty much the most common desk in the world, and it is supposedly known for its ease of use and speed(though I'm not a huge fan), creating a page for each type of service or event, and getting people on board with running playbacks, should not be too hard. Or if you have the money and you want a new desk don't limit yourself because people on the internet told you it was "too much desk." Get what you want.

Find a rental house that has what you want, or call some sales reps, and ask for a demo. Have someone patch your current equipment and walk you through the interface and main features of each one.
The Vista does some very cool things with its timeline and its generic fixture profile, that may or may not be useful to you, but you should try it to find out. It really is a lot different than other consoles. The Eos, on the other hand, has an ETC sticker on it; some people cannot live without this feature.

 

[JCarroll]

Hog4 Full Boar, had the show programmed and ready to go, but come showtime the desktop crashed not once, but three times on me. Pig+Open+Backspace.
The Avo is a great board and if it's considered non-user friendly, then I'm not sure what console is. Like others have said just get it set up properly with a nice basic punt page and some pallets and you'll be good to go without spending a ton on a new console. And as someone said above, if it isn't running titan, get that upgraded. Titan is an amazing piece of software and makes the console even easier to use.

 

[TechGeek]

No clue how you guys are having your problems... I'm running 4 shows at 12 shows at week on the same Hog and haven't ever had a problem.

To me the Hog and ETC consoles are easy pick up. I've never programmed groups and palettes on an ETC console so no clue how they are with that.

I ran a Christian Rock concert last night on my RoadHog3 with nothing pre-built except for position and color palettes and groups and a IPCB Fader for house lights and I did that in maybe 15 minutes. The concert went off with no problems. I ran 4 cyc LEDs, 4 stage wash LEDs, 4 front of house movers, 3 lekos for front light, 4 movers onstage, and a radiance hazer.

No problems at all. It takes me 10 minutes to patch and 10 to set my groups for programming.


Here's what I would do, contact your local dealer or a local rental company mad get a demo. That's the easiest way to choose.


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[MikeJ]

With Titan the Pearl offers a lot of power. Even Avo classic is pretty intuitive. The pearl might be one of the most easy to learn desks out there. There are some advanced things that it does not do as well as other desks, but you are probably not looking for those features anyway, if you want to get several people up to speed quickly. You can learn any desk pretty quickly if you sit down in front of it for a couple of days and watch tutorials on YouTube, but the Avo you can pick up just by reading the labels on the buttons.

 

[techieman33]

Without some training none of the modern powerful consoles are going to be much better than a pearl. The days of throwing someone in front of a console with a 5 minute tutorial are over, your not going to fix this problem with a different console. I would do as others have suggested and program lots of looks for the volunteers to work from and then just move faders up and down. I think that's where the physical buttons and faders of the pearl would be helpful. With physical buttons you don't have to worry about volunteers getting lost in layers of touch screens and getting frustrated trying to find there way out. I've never had any issues with the pearl being user friendly for novices in that way. I do it a couple times a year for dance recitals, and the dads always pick it up really fast and say how easy it was.