Resuscitating Auditorium I - Dimming & Distrib

eaglebear

Member
I'm working on bringing an old school auditorium closer to the 21st century. I may have a number of these posts in the coming months, so bear with me!

The current system is a Major Equipment Company install from 1964. There is a big Frankenstein board stage right rated at 200 Amps that contains about 60 breakers for stage lights, work lights, house lights, stage and auditorium outlets (which feed the sound system), as well as dressing rooms and a custodian closet. Currently only 1 of the 9 Luxtrol autotransformer dimmers work. The rest of the lights are all on or off. The power input as far as I can tell is three-phase with a neutral. The grounding bar has both a chassis ground and connection to the neutral (not sure exactly how it all works).

We very much need all the space we can get back stage. I was considering trying to get the old board removed and replacing it all with a service panel (and possibly splitting the dressing room and custodian closet lights to a sub panel) and then running distributed dimmers to the lights. As you can tell from above, I know enough to know to get someone else to do that part. Luckily I'm on good speaking terms with our HVAC guy who knows how to tangle with three-phase. The circuit breakers are all balanced across the three phases so each is basically one-phase; lucky for me, whoever installed it color-coded all the breakers.

Currently, we have 9 ellipsoidals in the beam position, which are located in the attic above the acoustical panel. (Eight are Major Equipment; one is a slightly newer Altman ERS, but we hardly use it - it seems much dimmer with the same 750 W bulb in the other fixtures). They utilize Twist-Lock plugs. We recently acquired some second-hand dimmer packs from a closed concert venue. I was planning on using one Leprecon ULD-360 for every three lights (two on one circuit, and one on the other, since each of these packs has two circuits which max out at 1800 W). We would need to replace the current plug boxes with Edison plugs, and then have Edison-to-Twist-Lock adapters to go from the DP to the instruments.

Also, over the stage, we have three rows of Altman Borderlight 528s over the stage. Each row has between 48 and 50 bulbs of unknown wattage. I do have some DPs I could use for them, but I would not be able to use all the lights - too much for the DPs I have (4x MD412-48 DMX, 1200 W / channel).

In the deal we got from that closed concert venue, we also acquired about 40 PAR Cans - I think they're mostly PAR64s, although I haven't gotten a close look at more than 10 of them. I had considered trying to get a handful of those rigged over the stage to use for color washes. It would be eighteen in three rows - two with red gels, two with blue gels, and two white or with amber gels on each row. That reflects the lighting options we're apt to see at our One-Act Play contests.

This is part of a large-scale plan to slowly move forward. The goal is to phase out these old instruments and move to safer and more efficient ones.
 
Where's the question?

Also better hope your HVAC guy is a licensed electrician, just because he can work on electrical systems in HVAC systems does not mean by any means he should be touching other electrical systems. There's plenty of HVAC techs who know just enough to be dangerous.
 
So before we go anywhere I see a big problem. You are talking about spending money on a conventional dimmer system to get you started, with a goal of phasing it out and moving to a more efficient LED system. Other than the control console these systems are going in opposite directions. Money spent on dimmers and power distribution will be wasted if you are planning to switch to LED's. With LED'S you need non-dimmed power and DMX distribution. Financially this is important to consider in your planning. The relative cost of an LED fixture drops a lot when you consider that you don't have to spend tens of thousands on dimmers and power distribution.
 
Let me clarify - I spent so much time getting that all written out, I failed to ask a question!

The equipment we are adding is DMX. I wasn't aware that LEDs would need different dimming - where can I find some information on this? Replacing the current instruments with LEDs might not necessarily be in the stars either. Right now, it would be nice just to have something without asbestos wiring! We can't take any tech students to learn about focusing and replacing lights for this reason.

I also wanted to see if the general idea seemed wise. In essence: take out the old autotransformer box; put in a load center for circuit breakers; run DMX DPs to the lights; run DMX cable from the board to the DPs.

And, at this point, the DPs are free (i.e., we already have them on hand). The major investment is in adding DMX cable, replacing TwistLock outlets with Edison, and adding the service panel/subpanel.

There is a possibility that the district will explore building a new auditorium at a different site, but this one is located smack dab in the center of the Junior High and gets used at least twice a week, more during theater productions and band concerts. In any event, we would still be using our current auditorium quite often even if we had a new district PAC.

So... does this seem to be a reasonable course of action? If anyone has worked with a slow transition forward, I'd appreciate insight.
 
The LED lights will need a standard constant power source to power them, and DMX data to control them. If you where to put in a new dimmer pack, then later replace the fixture with an LED version, you would need to replace the dimmer with something like a constant power module. Even turning a dimmer on to 100% and parking it there does not provide nice power for smart sort of things. Some companies non-dim modules will work safely, but it totally depends on how their modules work and what components they have in them.

The general idea of a panel with dimmers scattered about does work, but you have to get enough power to those dimmer packs. If you go the distributed dimmer route, you may need to run larger wire to feed each dimmer, but the conduit in place already may make that not that hard to do.

You may also be able to take your dimmer packs and install them where the current autotransformer stuff is. It would be easier to get power to the packs. You would then need to create some sort of patch bay to tie the packs into the existing circuits as needed.
 
Ok, LEDs need constant power. What you are proposing is to pull out the old Frankenstein dimmer system and just put in a power distro to save lots of wing space. There will be some money involved in moving all of the cabling and conduit especially if there is concrete under the stage. You will then have constant power running to all of your electrics. You would then plug in dimmer pacs where needed which would require a distributed dmx system. Personally what I would do is run everything that is not related to the theater such as dressing rooms and normal outlets to a panel. All of your electrics and floor boxes I would feed to a dimmer rack. As you upgrade and supplement to led fixtures you can remove the dimmer modules and replace them with non dim modules. Personally I do not like using portable dimmer packs especially in a school environment because it is easy to over load them. In regards to your aesbestos cord whips are you sure they are aesbestos and not just a cloth. There are threads on here on how to remove and replace aesbestos wiring in fixtures. Also aesbestos is safe as long as it doesn't start splitting apart and the fibers go airborne.
 
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I don't see where the OP said anything about LED.

From a macro level, your plan should work. Have a licensed electrician remove the autotransformers and add a distribution panel that sends that power along your existing circuits to enable you to power portable dimmer packs near the lights. Then you'll need to run DMX cable in a daisy chain to all the packs.

Distributed dimming has its problems, such as a failure in one part of the data chain taking the whole system out in a way that's difficult to troubleshoot quickly. But given you already have the packs, it may be a good choice. Then when you can afford a real dimmer rack you can put it where the auto transformer was.

I think replacing/supplementing the strips with PARS is a good choice. You may want to work in some other angles of lighting, such as high sides (or "pipe ends") that shine SR/SL and highlight the sides of people.

Oh, and I'd assume that the strips are several units plugged end-to-end, so you may be able to disconnect them from each other and hook them into dimmer packs as wattage allows.
 
Let me clarify - I spent so much time getting that all written out, I failed to ask a question!

The equipment we are adding is DMX. I wasn't aware that LEDs would need different dimming - where can I find some information on this? Replacing the current instruments with LEDs might not necessarily be in the stars either. Right now, it would be nice just to have something without asbestos wiring! We can't take any tech students to learn about focusing and replacing lights for this reason.

I also wanted to see if the general idea seemed wise. In essence: take out the old autotransformer box; put in a load center for circuit breakers; run DMX DPs to the lights; run DMX cable from the board to the DPs.

And, at this point, the DPs are free (i.e., we already have them on hand). The major investment is in adding DMX cable, replacing TwistLock outlets with Edison, and adding the service panel/subpanel.

There is a possibility that the district will explore building a new auditorium at a different site, but this one is located smack dab in the center of the Junior High and gets used at least twice a week, more during theater productions and band concerts. In any event, we would still be using our current auditorium quite often even if we had a new district PAC.

So... does this seem to be a reasonable course of action? If anyone has worked with a slow transition forward, I'd appreciate insight.

To my eye generally a reasonable plan. A few things I noticed in reading however.

Using the existing circuits to power the distributed dimming is an interesting approach. One problem is that it limits you to distributed dimmers that only use 120V - 15 amps. You might want to consider running three phase 20 Amp power from your distribution panel to various locations in the house. ( unlikely but should be considered)

My understanding of code is that you will need to be sure that the house lights do not fail if you pull too much power on your distirbution panel and blow the 200 amp breaker. IE there must be emergency exit lighting.


The thing I don't see in the plan is a console that sends DMX to the dimmers and other devices you plan to install. Not sure if the closed concert venue provides one or not. Lots of possible solutions - just make sure you are covered.
 
I'm working on bringing an old school auditorium closer to the 21st century. I may have a number of these posts in the coming months, so bear with me!

The current system is a Major Equipment Company install from 1964. There is a big Frankenstein board stage right rated at 200 Amps that contains about 60 breakers for stage lights, work lights, house lights, stage and auditorium outlets (which feed the sound system), as well as dressing rooms and a custodian closet. Currently only 1 of the 9 Luxtrol autotransformer dimmers work. The rest of the lights are all on or off. The power input as far as I can tell is three-phase with a neutral. The grounding bar has both a chassis ground and connection to the neutral (not sure exactly how it all works).

We very much need all the space we can get back stage. I was considering trying to get the old board removed and replacing it all with a service panel (and possibly splitting the dressing room and custodian closet lights to a sub panel) and then running distributed dimmers to the lights. As you can tell from above, I know enough to know to get someone else to do that part. Luckily I'm on good speaking terms with our HVAC guy who knows how to tangle with three-phase. The circuit breakers are all balanced across the three phases so each is basically one-phase; lucky for me, whoever installed it color-coded all the breakers.

Currently, we have 9 ellipsoidals in the beam position, which are located in the attic above the acoustical panel. (Eight are Major Equipment; one is a slightly newer Altman ERS, but we hardly use it - it seems much dimmer with the same 750 W bulb in the other fixtures). They utilize Twist-Lock plugs. We recently acquired some second-hand dimmer packs from a closed concert venue. I was planning on using one Leprecon ULD-360 for every three lights (two on one circuit, and one on the other, since each of these packs has two circuits which max out at 1800 W). We would need to replace the current plug boxes with Edison plugs, and then have Edison-to-Twist-Lock adapters to go from the DP to the instruments.

Also, over the stage, we have three rows of Altman Borderlight 528s over the stage. Each row has between 48 and 50 bulbs of unknown wattage. I do have some DPs I could use for them, but I would not be able to use all the lights - too much for the DPs I have (4x MD412-48 DMX, 1200 W / channel).

In the deal we got from that closed concert venue, we also acquired about 40 PAR Cans - I think they're mostly PAR64s, although I haven't gotten a close look at more than 10 of them. I had considered trying to get a handful of those rigged over the stage to use for color washes. It would be eighteen in three rows - two with red gels, two with blue gels, and two white or with amber gels on each row. That reflects the lighting options we're apt to see at our One-Act Play contests.

This is part of a large-scale plan to slowly move forward. The goal is to phase out these old instruments and move to safer and more efficient ones.

Can you get a few pictures of the autotransformer board, or has it already been rid of?
 
If you are planning to use the Leprecon ULD360 packs, you may want to consider lamping your units down so you can make full use of the packs rather than only putting 1-3 lights per pack. Ultimately, you'll be better off with a dimmer rack for your permanent uses, not a portable dimmer pack. If you are able to go the LED route, you won't need to fool with dimmer racks/packs.
 

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