Rosco Files Suit Against ETC

@Jay Ashworth, that can't possibly be worth the time. The formulas are different for every type of fixture and their own emitter arrays. Sure, you could do the popular ones, but then you need to move all that data around and if someone puts that effort in and then starts charging people $15 each for their effort, expect Rosco to send a C&D. It's also more work top-to-bottom than the alternatives. People will either maintain the older Eos software or they'll learn the Apollo/Lee equivalents. In the long-term, some will go so far as to throw gel numbers overboard if they find its faster to mix the colors they want than it is to jump through hoops to cross-convert between brands and learn someone else's swatchbook if they've been Rosco loyalists over the years.

I'm not sure it's cutting off their nose to spite their face. Trademarks are use-it-or-lose-it. Nobody knows what the breakdown was that a licensing agreement couldn't be reached, but if they couldn't reach a deal, they have to crack the whip. If they don't crack the whip, then they will be rebuked in other litigation if they crack the whip at others while letting someone else get a free pass. If they're making an active choice to stake a claim in the film lighting market with their DMG brand, they've likely already accepted that the gel side of their business is on death's door. The people who are still buying analog gel don't actually need console color pickers anyway -- and once those tungsten customers move into LED, that revenue is wholly forfeited if they aren't getting compensated for their IP through licensing deals or their other product lines. So getting aggressive on the IP/licensing side could be a low-risk, potentially high-reward scenario them if they done the calculus whatever reputational hit they'll take is minimal.

Some of the commentary in this thread about Rosco making a mistake here is likely overstated -- the people who are most impacted are the ones who aren't buying their products anymore so while it's not a good look for them, they probably don't have much to lose unless they were already getting a sweetheart licensing deal with Carallon before that expired in 2020. This suit could be a double-or-nothing move, but if they maintain the status quo, they're probably careening towards nothing anyway. Not saying what they're doing is good or bad from a moral standpoint or for the reputation of their legacy in the entertainment industry -- but their underlying argument isn't legally unsound and they'd have a ways to go yet before charting into patent troll territory.
 
I'm not any sort of attorney, much less an IP specialist, but I don't believe that either trademark or copyright law can be made to apply here without stretching them all out of proportion.

Trademark cannot apply to *descriptive* terms (the contents of a color description), and I don't think there's enough creativity in those descriptions to apply copyright law. As for the names, they're *names*, so copyright can't apply, and while you might make a case on trademark law, I wouldn't wanna prosecute it.

NPR on the Pantone v Adobe case from last year:

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and here's another piece on that which notes that Pantone, at least, had an *excuse* for the high prices of their swatchbooks: printing those things is an $EXPLETIVE_DELETED(class=1), requiring a 10-head lithopress and spot varnishing. Rosco doesn't really have that excuse; technology is merely going on past them, just as it has in previous generations with buggy whips and limelight. And film. And long distance.

And soon, sadly, radio broadcasting.


And here's the docketing, for this week, in the Southern District of New York:


I see that it is a trademark case; I don't have a PACER account to pull the filing out to see precisely what they claim.
 
It's not as if the colors were simply Red, Blue, Green, Amber, White, etc. Rosco's swatchbooks come with a spectral chart that corresponds to each and every color. It's not just a book of creative names for different colors. It's less a matter of individual colors and more a matter of a comprehensive color reference system.

For all intents and purposes, my understanding would be that Carallon reverse-engineered the LED equivalents of spectral recipes for Rosco's colors and then provided that information to ETC and others which has been labeled as Rosco's colors represented using Rosco's numbering scheme, in substitution by users of a product that Rosco would ordinarily sell but at the time, Rosco had licensed the rights to Carallon to offer this service. Now, most of that math probably took place in spreadsheets or some other algorithm and wasn't necessarily fine-tuned by hand one color at a time once the spectral limits of a fixture were measured, but Rosco's within their right to say that's not how they want their trademarks to be used moving forward at whatever expense this drama may be to their reputation in the theater market. As ETC is also within their right to remove all references to Rosco from their controls products -- not just color libraries -- at least while litigation is pending.

Why this suit is being taken up against ETC and not Carallon is probably a matter of contract law and whatever contract Rosco may have had with Carallon and Carallon may have had with ETC, none of which the public is privy to.

As I said before though, trademarks are use-it-or-lose-it. If Rosco is pivoting to being a reference for digital color recipes and/or their own premium fixtures and they don't enforce their trademark, they will struggle to stave off competition from others using their IP -- not just ETC, as giving anyone a pass can be used against them in the future. That's why entities like Disney or Coca Cola get bad raps for some of their C&D's and trademark suits. If Rosco wanted too much money for their library, that's on them, but doesn't deprive them of the right to not have their color library utilized by other vendors unless their contracts didn't specify an expiry on those licenses (i.e., if ETC was granted the data from Carallon in 2019 and hasn't added new colors since, and no expiry information was present in the agreements, there could be a case made that the no recurring licensing fees are justified.).

In short, it's impossible to know which party or parties of the three may have operated in bad faith, if any, or if they all operated in good faith and find themselves at a crux of creative differences for the role of analog color schemes in an LED world.

The timing between the opening of this suit and conclusion of Rotolight's suit against Rosco that ended with both companies offering their IP to each other is likely not coincidental, the terms of which are unknown may have had implications for Rosco battening down their IP hatches. Rotolight is licensing their CineFX IP to Rosco, and Rosco is licensing their Rosco True Color IP to Rotolight. This came shortly on the heels of Arri settling with Rotolight in regards to Rotolight's CineFX IP. Lots of legal movement in the industry lately on trademarks and IP.
 
Sure, but you haven't quite said if you believe the trademarkable IP is the *color names* or the *formulas*.
I think they have a corner case on the former, and no defensible case on the latter, myself, though again, IANAL.

> It's not just a book of creative names for different colors.

It's not? Cause it sure seems like it is, much moreso than, say, Pantone, who *do* the work to make PMS color recipes match from ink to fabric and (I think) paints.

The way that you phrase your speculation makes it sound like you think Carallon did it themselves (as I mused), and then struck a deal with Rosco after the fact, which deal has now died, leaving Carallon's customers (ETC) and end users (well, us) up a creek, unable to utilize the very expensive devices ETC sold us *in a fashion they promoted as a feature, which was probably material in many sales*.

I'd hate to be ETC when they start getting sued on that point -- and for yanking the feature out in a point-upgrade, probably without any warning.

It's one of many reasons why I don't do upgrades just because vendors tossed them over the transom.
 
I have no speculation on what transpired between all parties in the last three years beyond that if three years has transpired, there were likely some negotiations in the interim that broke down. It's possible that between buying DMG and duking it out with Rotolight, Rosco has reframed their intent on how they position themselves in the market that has thrown ETC for a loop, but we cannot know that to be fact.

The analogy I would use is that of a cookbook. If you printed a cookbook under your own brand name for which you exclusively sold the ingredients for and many restaurants depends on both your recipes and ingredients for a guaranteed quality customer experience, and then someone else published their own version of that which the ingredients anyone could get anywhere but from you, and they put your name on it as well as your names for all of the individual recipes -- you may get a little perturbed by that. The fact the recipes are similar to yours may not matter but the fact they've put your name on it and used your unique naming scheme for all their recipes does. If that's infringement, since at one point in time you licensed your recipes and branding to them, is subject to whatever was in any applicable contracts, with whatever timelines those agreements may or may not have had.

Since we haven't seen similar suits from Rosco against other companies, it could be that ETC is the first of more to come, or that Rosco overplayed their hand in negotiations with ETC and that they've otherwise been able to reach agreements with companies like MA Lighting, who also licensed Carallon's products. Who knows.

In the AV world, I have certainly seen companies like ClearOne go full patent-troll and choose to leave a dilapidated product lineup in place and make it their primary purpose to generate revenue by suing companies like Shure, Biamp, etc. I don't know that's what's happening here, but for reference, some of those suits got as silly as Shure could sell a beam-steering ceiling microphone so long as they didn't sell it as a product that could be placed in a 2x2 ACT grid, to which they only sold surface-mount versions and then left it to third-parties to make adapters to retrofit into a 2x2 grid. Infringement cases can go on for years and hinge and on some rather eccentric technicalities like that. ClearOne has used that to garner a reputation of being a company very few want to spec because the software for controlling their products looks like something that died in 1998, but they still won their suits and got paid so they can live to fight another day.

Fixture libraries, historically, have been to support the use of a wide diversity of manufacturer's products. Color libraries in consoles, on the other hand, are a replacement for the product those color media companies have been selling, while stamping their names on it. Rosco/Lee/Apollo aren't ever going to sell more gel because a controls company offers equivalent color pickers for LED fixtures. So there's some nuance here. In contrast to Pantone, Pantone sells the recipes and sheens and such, but doesn't sell actual paint or dyes. In this case, Rosco sells the color media they stamp their color numbers, names, and spectral data on -- which color pickers for LEDs make obsolete.

Personally and overall, I think the nuance of whatever the merits of the suit may be are less interesting than the virtue of how designers and programmers communicate about color in the future given that the next generations of programmers will have no idea what R80 under a 3200K lamp looks like, and LED's can offer both wider ranges and much more intensity than tungsten sources ever could, especially as you get into more saturated colors. Whatever the outcome of this suit, pulling Rosco's library becomes baptism by fire for many designers and programmers to adopt a new workflow for color than deferring to gel equivalents.
 
Tangent: Interesting marketing ad I happened upon while viewing this thread. Coincidence? Probably. Hilarious? Definitely.

etc shade.PNG
 
Sure, but you haven't quite said if you believe the trademarkable IP is the *color names* or the *formulas*.
I think they have a corner case on the former, and no defensible case on the latter, myself, though again, IANAL.

> It's not just a book of creative names for different colors.

It's not? Cause it sure seems like it is, much moreso than, say, Pantone, who *do* the work to make PMS color recipes match from ink to fabric and (I think) paints.

The way that you phrase your speculation makes it sound like you think Carallon did it themselves (as I mused), and then struck a deal with Rosco after the fact, which deal has now died, leaving Carallon's customers (ETC) and end users (well, us) up a creek, unable to utilize the very expensive devices ETC sold us *in a fashion they promoted as a feature, which was probably material in many sales*.

I'd hate to be ETC when they start getting sued on that point -- and for yanking the feature out in a point-upgrade, probably without any warning.

It's one of many reasons why I don't do upgrades just because vendors tossed them over the transom.
 
Maybe I'm under thinking this - I'm thinking of Rosco licensing the "cookbook" of making their colors (that they'd have to make using each fixture) and making it super obvious - would align with "Made for iPhone", "THX Certified", "Designed for Castrol", "with Microban® Antimicrobial Technology", etc.
All of the manufacturers that lean on these 3rd parties aren't doing it because they can't sell their product without it, it's because it gives them a leg up. How much? No one knows. Probably minimal. But still, they go for those endorsements because it sets them apart from those that don't.
Hell, within the same manufacturer, they can use the endorsement to sell the "pro" model because it's been certified when the base model wasn't.
Would they also include other manufacturer's recipes? Who cares? If no one seems to care that they can't choose an R#, they'll never be thrilled they can choose a G# instead. Almost everyone has a favorite but also a fallback, because before console formulae, they dealt with retailers who were out of stock on R54 and had to sub G920.
 
There's also people like me who rarely, if ever, specified a Rosco colour, other than for replacement of existing colours in scrollers (and you can guess how often I'll be doing that in future). Otherwise, Lee.
 
There's also people like me who rarely, if ever, specified a Rosco colour, other than for replacement of existing colours in scrollers (and you can guess how often I'll be doing that in future). Otherwise, Lee.
And you suh..need to let go of Lee and his damnable stars and bars. And I just found out on Wikipedia that ROSCO is a general term for "rolling stock company", or a company that owns and leases Locomotives and railway equipment. So R23 Could be a locomotive designation... (plausible deniability)
 
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I'm curious to know what the gelmaker in Indiana thinks of all this. If only we knew someone...
A little late to the party, kids. My apologies!

Since losing our facility and all inventory to a couple of arsonist kids in December 2020, COVID taught us all a lesson: pivot or go out of business. While we would not consider the huge expense to re-enter the gel market, the enormous loss of gel-generated sales revenue to Rosco can't be overstated. Having said that, it's my personal opinion that filing suit against such a well-known and respected manufacturer doesn't increase the likelihood of raising sales or endearing their customers. We'll see how this pans out-

Apollo continues creating custom and stock gobos and has spun the laser etching and laser cutting side of the business to machine shops, tool & die makers, and a number of large manufacturers. It won't be long before the Apollo MFG side of the business dwarfs the entertainment lighting division. www.apollomfg.com Check it out!
 
Forgive my denseness, but you seem to be saying "ApolloGel is discontinued."
Did I miss a press release?

Union Connector stops making pin connectors and I don't find out for eight years. Apollo stops making color media and doesn't tell me for two years. It's like the press people are avoiding bad news or something.
 
Forgive my denseness, but you seem to be saying "ApolloGel is discontinued."
Did I miss a press release?

Union Connector stops making pin connectors and I don't find out for eight years. Apollo stops making color media and doesn't tell me for two years. It's like the press people are avoiding bad news or something.
Just to add to the pain, I found out recently that Leprecon is done as well. Looking at their website they’re still offering the venerable ULD dimmers but all control boards appear discontinued.

I believe there’s still someone in the org offering support, and Littlite is still going strong, but the LP612 seems to be riding off into the sunset.
 
Forgive my denseness, but you seem to be saying "ApolloGel is discontinued."
Did I miss a press release?

Union Connector stops making pin connectors and I don't find out for eight years. Apollo stops making color media and doesn't tell me for two years. It's like the press people are avoiding bad news or something.
Good afternoon, Derek

Between the pandemic and losing our building to arsonists, Joel mentioned we would be discontinuing some product lines within his comments here . No, Apollo gel was not singled out, and I apologize for that. As a frequent flyer here at the CB, I should have made a formal statement regarding those items we couldn't bring back. Other items which were discontinued were the Right Arm, Apollo Color Scrollers, DMX cable, Crushed Dichroics, gel frames, and donuts.

We appreciate the kind words, thoughts and prayers during that difficult transitional time.

:)
 

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