Scroller Comparison

[FlashBang]

So I'm looking at purchasing about 6 scrollers to put onto fresnels to be able to manipulate the color of my stage wash without doubling up (or in the case of a color scroll 7x up) on the fixtures.

I'm looking at both color mixing and simple color scroll units, but the color mixing ones don't seem much more expensive and obviously offer much more variation.

The Morpheus product looks pretty good: Products - Morpheus Lights

Any comments on this product?
Any less expensive units out there that you think are of equal or superior quality?
Any slightly more expensive units out there that incorporate more features?

 

[sk8rsdad]

Do you have a price on the Morpheus units? I don't know whether anything I could suggest is more or less expensive.

If they are more than $600 each then there are plenty of other options. It might be worthwhile to consider some quality LED fixtures instead of adding scrollers to your existing fresnels. If you opt for scrollers, be sure to get heat shield as well to extend the life of the gel strings.

 

[xander]

I have never personally used, or even seen, a Morpheus ColorFader3, but on paper it looks like quite a product. Your standard (most common) scrollers are the Apollo Smart Color, Wybron ColoRam II, and Wybron CXI. You can't go wrong with any of those.

 

[techno89]

I would second wybron however I would say if you can to put those on par64's. You will get a much nicer output and than you would a fresnel. I personally use the original Coloram in my theatre and they work nicely.

 

[derekleffew]

I would second wybron however I would say if you can to put those on par64's. You will get a much nicer output and than you would a fresnel. ...

WHAT you put the color changer on has no bearing on how it operates.
Things to consider are:
Do you want to do live color fades? Morpheus ColorFader.
Do you need to mix more than the 11-32 colors in a string, sacrificing some level of intensity? CXI, MXR.
Least expensive, most reliable? SmartColor, ColoRam.

 

[techno89]

WHAT you put the color changer on has no bearing on how it operates.
Things to consider are:
Do you want to do live color fades? Morpheus ColorFader.
Do you need to mix more than 10-24 colors in a string, sacrificing some level of intensity? CXI, MXR.
Least expensive, most reliable? SmartColor, ColoRam.

He mentioned he was putting it on a fresnel, I was suggesting a switch to a PAR64, the main point of that post was to support Wybron

 

[JWilsonLX]

I've worked fairly extensively with CXIs and I've never been crazy about the ambers/reds they make. Other than that, they do live fade fairly well, depending on how far your strings have to move. Never worked with a Morpheus, but they look pretty nice.

 

[techieman33]

He mentioned he was putting it on a fresnel, I was suggesting a switch to a PAR64, the main point of that post was to support Wybron

Why would even suggest that? They are very different fixtures, and we don't even have any details about his. For all we know it's a 2k and a par 64 wouldn't even come close to touching it. For a theater wash I'll take the adjustability of a fresnel over a par can any day.

 

[JChenault]

I have some old as the hills Morpheus S faders. I like the flexibility but be aware that having three scrolls to cuts down on the light output more than you might expect. (especially after the scroll gets old and a bit scratched up )' Additionally the holes in the scrolls give a bit of texture to the beam.

 

[LXPlot]

I use Apollo Smart Colors extensively and they work very well. They are durable, rarely have problems, and have a decent selection of colors. It also depends on what you want; if you're running a school you want the cheaper kinds, regardless, it may be helpful to buy something cheaper but in a larger quantity.

 

[FlashBang]

For all we know it's a 2k and a par 64 wouldn't even come close to touching it. For a theater wash I'll take the adjustability of a fresnel over a par can any day.

The fresnels are 1k only. But I'm relatively new to lighting - so maybe I've been going about this all wrong :s

I use fresnels, not pars, for my color washes because:
A) I figure higher output means the colored light can be brighter (although you lose color -[saturation?])
B) The area covered is more even. Meaning, its not a pattern of circles like that created by many pars.
C) MUCH wider coverage per fixture. But I guess thats specific to my lenses?

I know this probably isn't proper, but I usually use my pars to add white light in general areas that need to be brighter within the color wash and add non-foh front-light.

Additionally the holes in the scrolls give a bit of texture to the beam.

Huh? Holes?
Good point about the 3 scrolls effecting output. Hadn't thought about that.

Also, yesterday I was told that the color mixing scrolls tend to be about 3 times as expensive as a regular gel scroll. Replacing 3 of those could get pricey real quick.

 

[soundlight]

I used SmartColor scrollers from Apollo extensively in college. I think we had somewhere between 14 and 18 by the time I left? We just kept getting more because they were so good. They were rock solid and kept their calibration well for the entire run of a show (except when I used them for my light shows and slammed them back and forth to get to the colors I wanted in black). When we had to send one back to Apollo (I forget why) it was quickly returned with the problem fixed.

 

[icewolf08]

He mentioned he was putting it on a fresnel, I was suggesting a switch to a PAR64, the main point of that post was to support Wybron

I don't follow how using PARs in any way supports Wybron. The fixture you put a scroller on has no effect on the quality of the light any more than the choice of fixture does. Most scrollers either have an adjustable backplate or a swappable one so that you can put them on different fixtures. There is no better reason to use a scroller on a PAR than there is to use one on a fresnel or a leko.

Also, your reference to nicer output is totally subjective, the look you think is nice may not be in the eyes of someone else. Not that many design choices are not subjective, but in this case (as with many design choices), telling someone they are using the wrong fixture is wrong. In this situation there is no wrong fixture to use, no wrong choice (unless the choice leads to a spotty wash with dark spots on stage).

The fresnels are 1k only. But I'm relatively new to lighting - so maybe I've been going about this all wrong :s

I use fresnels, not pars, for my color washes because:
A) I figure higher output means the colored light can be brighter (although you lose color -[saturation?])
B) The area covered is more even. Meaning, its not a pattern of circles like that created by many pars.
C) MUCH wider coverage per fixture. But I guess thats specific to my lenses?

I know this probably isn't proper, but I usually use my pars to add white light in general areas that need to be brighter within the color wash and add non-foh front-light.

See what I said above. You are not doing anything wrong. There isn't a wrong solution to your problem as long as you are happy with the solution you come up with. Your justification for your choices makes perfect sense, so don't worry about it. You should know that you can change the lamp in your PARs to get different field sizes, there are 4 common lamps, WFL, MFL, NSP, VNSP (wide flood, medium, narrow spot, very narrow). I hope that I am not repeating information you already know. By keeping a selection of different lamps, you can match your PARs to what you need them for much like swapping lenses in a source four.

Good point about the 3 scrolls effecting output. Hadn't thought about that.

Also, yesterday I was told that the color mixing scrolls tend to be about 3 times as expensive as a regular gel scroll. Replacing 3 of those could get pricey real quick.

These are both important things to think about. Consider that a single string gel string costs an average of $45-50 to have made. If your scroller takes multiple strings I have to assume you are going to pay significantly more (I have never used muti-string scrollers). I have built my own gel strings for single string scrollers, and discovered that the cost savings is not huge when you factor in the time it takes to build them.

On a multi-string scroller you do have to think about loss of output since you are hooting through two or more gels, but you would have to think about the same thing if you used a deep color anyway.

Another thing you have to consider, one which has yet to be mentioned, is power, data, and control. What console are you using? Do you use any other DMX "toys"? DO you have a DMX distribution system in place in your venue already? You will need a way to get data from the console to the scrollers. Depending on how many scrollers and which ones you buy, you will have to get a some power supplies and cable. This can also get expensive fast. There are limits to the number of scrollers and the amount of cable that you can put on a given PSU, so you will need to plan for that based on your setup at your venue. So, make sure that you factor that in when you look at cost.

Now, for my humble opinion. I own and use a bunch of the Apollo SmartColor scrollers and they have been rock solid since I got them. They are easy to work with and pretty quiet. I have worked with Wybron's ColoRamIIs, and I am still trying to figure out what the real difference is between them aside from triple the price. As I mentioned before, I have not worked with multi-string scrollers, but I have never felt too limited on the units I use.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[JChenault]

Huh? Holes?
Good point about the 3 scrolls effecting output. Hadn't thought about that.

Also, yesterday I was told that the color mixing scrolls tend to be about 3 times as expensive as a regular gel scroll. Replacing 3 of those could get pricey real quick.

Yeah - holes.
I have never seen a CMY scroller arangement ( IE three scrolls of gradated color) that do not have a pattern of holes to increase the amount of white light they let through. For very light colors they have a larger holes. For more saturated light they have smaller holes. If you take a look at the Morpheus sight and expand their picture you can make them out. http://www.morpheuslights.com/files/20081023175826_ColorFader.pdf

Now to be fair, I am using a an ellipsoidal in the scroller, not a PAR or Fresnel, so my dappled look may be due to that. And it is not noticeable to the audience - jnust to me.

As to expense - yes they are expensive - my memory is about $70 a scroll. When we got our (used) units we had to replace several sets of scrolls. The new scrolls seem to be holding up quite well however. In the three years we have been using them we have had no issues with the replacement scrolls. IE they seem to hold up well.

 

[smigit2002]

I've worked with a wide range of scrollers. I know people who swear by them, and others who hate them.
I haven't worked with any of the dual string mixing, but I have always liked the Morpheus units. Again, it really does boil down how you are looking to use them. If you plan on only changing colors in blackouts, the exact type probably will not matter, and you can save a lot of money going with a single scroll option.

Another thing you have to consider, one which has yet to be mentioned, is power, data, and control. What console are you using? Do you use any other DMX "toys"? DO you have a DMX distribution system in place in your venue already? You will need a way to get data from the console to the scrollers. Depending on how many scrollers and which ones you buy, you will have to get a some power supplies and cable. This can also get expensive fast. There are limits to the number of scrollers and the amount of cable that you can put on a given PSU, so you will need to plan for that based on your setup at your venue. So, make sure that you factor that in when you look at cost.

Seconding icewolf, data and power distribution is an important factor. With most scrollers, daisy chaining power and signal is common. However, Morpheus units require home runs (each scroller needs a cable directly from the power supply). I would assume this is because of the additional power requirements of three motors vs one, but it will probably require longer cable lengths, which again adds up to more startup cost.

I would see if a local distributor could demo a few options for you.
Seeing is believing.

 

[FlashBang]

So color mixing scrollers are now ruled out for me because:

1)units are MUCH more expensive, as are scrolls
2)you guys seem satisfied with single-scroll, and I know I'm not doing shows that compete with the complexity / level of professionalism of your shows

As to what kind of scroller:

1)Apollo is among the cheapest scrollers I've come across online
2)The SmartColor seems to be tried and true from the numerous references in this thread

As for the other things mentioned, I will soon be receiving an ETC Element that will run these. I have a DMX out on-stage, not far from my LX 1 so its a simple cable run for control. Getting non-dimmed power in there will be tricky, but not impossible.

One more questions thats popped up though: How do you go about continuing the DMX chain from one batten to the next? (my battens are on a pulley system, so they don't remain at a fixed relative height)

Thanks for the help everyone!

 

[smigit2002]

I've heard nothing but good things about the SmartColors. Probably the cheapest new scroller you can get that's from a reputable manufacturer.

One more questions thats popped up though: How do you go about continuing the DMX chain from one batten to the next? (my battens are on a pulley system, so they don't remain at a fixed relative height)

Depending on the situation, I would either a.) mount the power supply on one of the electrics, run my signal through, jump to the wall, move upstage, and jump back onto the next electric, or b.) mount the power supply on the wall and send two separate lines out of it.
B requires your power supply to have two output channels, but I feel like that is relatively common.
Since these are electrics, there's power cables running to the electrics. I would suggest just looking at how the power is run, and duplicating the concept. Just make sure to leave yourself plenty of slack and strain relief.

 

[metti]

Just to be clear, Apollo no longer makes and sells the SmartColor. It has been replaced with the SmartColor Pro which is essentially the same price but is nicer in a few ways. I currently own/use some SmartColor Pros and I love them.

 

[derekleffew]

...One more questions thats popped up though: How do you go about continuing the DMX chain from one batten to the next? (my battens are on a pulley system, so they don't remain at a fixed relative height) .

A couple of ways of handing this (from best and most expensive to least):

1. A 5pin DMX cable from the console runs backstage to an opto-splitter, possibly on the grid. A 5pin DMX cable goes from the opto to a scroller PSU on each lighting position. Then 4pin power/data cable daisy-chains thru the scrollers and returns back to the PSU. The DMX cable follows the same path, and can be e-taped, tie-lined or zip-tied to the borderlight cable feeding the electrics. If going this route, every PSU's DMX THRU needs to be terminated.

2. A 5pin DMX cable from the console runs backstage to the first lighting position and plugs in to the DMX IN on the PSU. Then 4pin power/data cable daisy-chains thru the scrollers and returns back to the PSU. A second 5pin cable plugs in to the DMX THRU on the PSU and continues to the next PSU. Both DMX cables (In & Out) follow the path of the borderlight cable. Only the last PSU or DMX device in the stream needs a Terminator, DMX.


3. If you don't have enough PSUs to have one at each lighting position, one PSU can be located in a central location, and 4pin cable can be used for the scrollers, but the maximum length of this cabling, including the return line, is 200' on any one output. (As said above, many larger PSUs have more than one output.)

 

[RJMS]

I know this thread is a bit old, but it is a good one concerning the state of color scrollers so I just want to add my 2 cents:

I have:
Wybron Forerunners:
Purchased USED about 8 years ago. They have had one problem in all that time, and shipping it to Wybron resulted in a $65 repair bill. The fans are somewhat noisy relative to not having a fan running at all, and you cannot turn it off.
They scroll from one end to other SLOWLY, and you cannot change that speed. They have slots on the front to add accessories (mine are mounted on a Strand 3380 Fresnel 1Kw toplight wash and I have barn doors on them to shield the beam from the audiences eyes. Color Strings last a fairly long time and are not that expensive, maybe $60 each now. New Forerunners are about $450, and can be used with most Power supplies from Rosco, Apollo, and some of the older Wybron units, but NOT Color Ram units.

Morpheous ColorFader 3:
I have 3 of these and a six way Power Supply (it is proprietary, and the units do NOT daisy chain, it is a STAR setup, each unit's 4 pin cable runs to the PS). They were expensive, $1400 each from Barbizon about 7 years ago. I bought them in a year when I had some extra money. I bought them just before Wybron came out with their CXI. I am always wanting to have a couple of each type of fixture and accessory around for instructional purposes, and so I wished to have an example of a subtractive mixing unit. Subtractive is a key word here. They are mounted on 26 degree Source Four 750's. When you mix to primary colors they are VERY DARK. Having 3 scrolls cuts out a lot of the output of the fixture. The don't really do pastels.
That said, they are very handy in the color class where we demonstrate the effect of colored light on pigment.

Apollo Smart Color and Smart Color Pro
I have 12 Smart Colors and 6 Smart Color Pros. I bought the first set when they had only just been introduced. I have had one bad unit that went back to the factory for repairs, and they sent me a replacement while mine was being fixed as I recall. That was at the beginning, I doubt they need to do that anymore, but it gives an idea of how nice they are about their product support, just like Wybron is.
These units are well thought out and feature rich. You can control scroll speed and they have fan speed control via a dmx channel, so mine are set up to be turned off when not in use or when I need quiet (I program that into the cues for the show). The scrolls are very easy to change out, like ridiculously easy compared to my Forerunners. The first edition is power hungry, 38 watts vs. 14 wattts for the Forerunner, which means you need at least twice as many Power Supplies, but the newer ones are down to 26 watts.

DMX termination: I have had good success putting 4 pin terminator plugs at the end of the runs rather then doing return lines. I have Forerunner, Wybron PS150, Rosco 200, and Apollo 400 power supplies in the mix.

I have demo'd both the Wybron CXI and the Apollo MXR. Like the Color Fader 3 they are subtractive mixing, and so you lose a lot of light, and I was not crazy about the look of the colors that I was able to get from them. In that realm the CF3 is the best of the 3 to my eye.

I have also used the Wybron Nexara (Wybron lent me some for a show when they first came out, and another theatre on campus owns some): I love the profile unit, I am not wild about the wash unit, and they are about the same price as a CF3, so if you are going to buy a subtractive color mixing scroller unit the Nexara is a much better value because you get a fixture with it and it uses dichroics so it is much brighter. But this thread is about scrollers, so I should stop there