tree construction drawings

[Jackalope]

We are building three very large trees with the roots showing so that actors will be able to walk in and around the root structure, the trunks disappear into the masking. I'm pretty sure that we are going to use metal forms for the armature and either foam or plywood to add bulk to the structure.
I could weld this up organically by referencing the model, but... i would much rather draft this up so that others can build it (I am in an educational theater).
How would I turn this into construction drawings (check out attached pictures)?

 

[Van]

You could do one of my favorite ways of developing working drawings for an extremely complicated piece..... Cheat !
I like to Model things like this tree in Sketchup. Being very careful to add internal structure where possible, and guide point where it's not as easy. Then using the 'Section tool' make vertical or horizontal slices through the model. export them to AutoCAD then edit for detail and notation. I know it sounds kind of complicated but I've found, as a self taught AuotCAD-ist that it's much easier than trying to mentally build the thing then render the ideas in 2D using standard CAD.

 

[Jackalope]

Okay, I see what you are getting at, I was thinking of building a 3d model of it , but was avoiding it only because my experience in working this way is relatively new. I have done some 3d work in Autocad and just recently in Vectorworks/ renderworks... Could you explain how sketch-up relates to these two programs; in other words would it be avisable to try to learn sketch-up to work with CAD which I have years of experience with, or should I stick to learning Vectorworks and utilze the tools there?

Thanks

Jackalope

 

[ajb]

For the piece you've shown, it looks like you can break it down into the trunk and individual roots that can be drafted separately. My approach would be to sketch out the top and elevation views of each root as 2dpolylines, then place them in correct relative position in 3D to serve as guides and convert to blocks. You may want to also trace (on paper) and scan in and trace (in CAD) the footprint of the tree so that you have a concrete reference. Do this for all of the roots and the trunk, then fit them together to make sure it all looks right--use 'Edit block in place' to match them up if it doesn't. Once that's done, start drawing in the support structure, either editing the blocks in place for the parts where two components meet or in the block editor. Then start building out the additional armature support to match the outlines you sketched earlier. Once you've got it all satisfactorily 'built', create new blockrefs of each component in a separate area where you can lay them out for annotation, and even take additional sections as needed.

The tricky part with this particular piece is that it looks like you'll wind up with a good number of compound angles, so you'll need to get real friendly with the UCS and have a fairly beefy computer to deal with this in AutoCAD. Not sure how VW or Sketchup compare in that respect.

Van's method is also a good approach, however I think one problem you'd run into with it is that you'll likely have framing members crossing through multiple 'slices' which can get tricky to line up.

 

[Jackalope]

Thanks to you both. Funny I just traced off where the roots hit the floor onto paper (did a quick reference grid), scanned it into VW and traced it off...then I read your post. I think I am heading in the right direction. The 2d polylines I hadn't thought of. I think I will try this in VW and then extrude a square along the path to give me something to work from.

 

[aelfric5578]

You could do one of my favorite ways of developing working drawings for an extremely complicated piece..... Cheat !
I like to Model things like this tree in Sketchup. Being very careful to add internal structure where possible, and guide point where it's not as easy. Then using the 'Section tool' make vertical or horizontal slices through the model. export them to AutoCAD then edit for detail and notation. I know it sounds kind of complicated but I've found, as a self taught AuotCAD-ist that it's much easier than trying to mentally build the thing then render the ideas in 2D using standard CAD.

I don't mean to co-opt this post, but could you elaborate on how you add internal structure to a sketch-up model? I'm still learning the tool and I'm having trouble figuring out how to use sketch up for structure as well as shape.

 

[BrianWolfe]

If I was building your tree I would want a simple groundplan, front view and section (mostly for scale and intended structure). What I would really want is that model and a list of what was important to you and the director. Then leave me to figure out the structure and mode of construction. Seeing that you are in educational theatre it will be more incumbent upon you to provide the direction to those you are taching to build your trees.

 

[Jackalope]

Seeing that you are in educational theatre it will be more incumbent upon you to provide the direction to those you are taching to build your trees.

yes totally agree with you there, I do work very closely with the students as we build scenery. What I was hoping to do is to model what they would find in the "real world" i.e if they were a stage carpenter at a regional theater for example, what kind of drawings and or other visuals would they be given to build this tree. The other thing I am concerned with is that as future TD's how will they communicate the build with their crews... these trees are a huge part of the design and I am hoping to milk it from every educational angle.

 

[Van]

I don't mean to co-opt this post, but could you elaborate on how you add internal structure to a sketch-up model? I'm still learning the tool and I'm having trouble figuring out how to use sketch up for structure as well as shape.

I like to use a lot of layers and a lot of components when building in Sketchup. If you draw a cylinder there is nothing stopping you from cutting a section an adding internal ribbing to that cylinder. Or you could draw all the ribbing first then draw the cylinder around it. Perhaps I should start a SketchUp thread where we can share tips and tricks, and models?

 

[Traitor800]

I did almost this exact same thing one summer for a professional theatre and all i was given was a ground plan so that I could cartoon and cut out the base and then the model. the TD would give me basic dimensions for where important features would be and she also was very active in the project. Basically once I got past the basics she would sit on a ladder and point to where she wanted a piece and then my buddy would cut it and then I would tack it in place, And then once I had a bunch of pieces tacked she and the other carp would go do other things and I would weld. This went on for about a day and in the end we had something that looked relatively like the model.

 

[ajb]

In truth, many shops will likely use Traitor's method for a piece like this. From a management perspective, you have to balance the TD's time taken to do all of the drafting versus how much carpenter time is actually saved. Plus, complex drafting like this can quite challenging and requires a serious level of CAD competence and a thorough, methodical apporach. I know a number of TDs who lack both and would prefer to just FIP and make it 'look right' and match a few critical dimensions than do all of that drafting.

On the other hand, if the piece is structurally or mechanically complex--say it supports a large load-bearing platform or has mechanized trap doors or some-such--then a complete drafting becomes essential to be able to calculate loads and design mechanisms, and in such a situation you really can save lots of carpenter time--not to mention headaches--versus all of that TD time.

 

[Jackalope]

In truth, many shops will likely use Traitor's method for a piece like this.

What is "traitor's method"

 

[ajb]

Sorry, I was referring to the method Traitor800 described in the post above mine--just building it by eye from the model.