Tungsten to LED upgrade

[Krispyduck]

Hello World!

Working in a Mid sized venue and we are looking into replacing all tungsten stock for LED. Im currently looking at different units and wanted to put this to you all and see what advise if anyone has done the same recently.

We mainly use all ETC stock of S4 zooms, Pars and parnels. Rig is 6m high with FOH throw distance of 5m & 10m. My main concern is replacing the old Source 4 zoom 750s for something that will have equally the same amount of punch. Currently getting dizzy at lux numbers with some demo units.

Main contenders for our budget are;

ETC Colour Source V ( haven't demo'd yet)
Chauvet Ovation 910 ( haven't demo'd yet)
Prolight ECL FC ( Demoed but lux numbers just not there)
Source4ward 2 ( Demoed but really bad lux numbers)
Elation KL profile (Not Demoed yet)

Any advise appreciated.

 

[Ford]

Hi there,
I would also take a look at the Ovation Reve E3. This would give you a little more punch in very pale colors than you’re used to with your current S4 750s.
Ideally, you should get demos of the fixtures in, so that you can compare all of them against each other. With the size of purchase you’re looking at, any reputable dealer should be able to schedule their demos accommodate this (you will probably need to work with a few different dealers to get the gear from different manufacturers at the same time.)
I’d suggest scheduling at least a day to compare all of the gear, and see it in combination with the other lights that you’re also replacing (led replacements for your para, Parnell, and battens). Try figuring out a week (or a few days) that works best for you, and telling the various dealers that they need to have the demo gear there to be considered for the project.

Budget wise, consider also that you will need far fewer LED fixtures, as you will not need to double hang to transition between colors.

For your over stage fixtures (fresnel, par, cyc and battens), consider trying to find fixtures with a unified color system. That will make it easier to build cohesive looks.

 

[theatricalmatt]

I'd push for a mix of the ColorSource V Spots and Fresnels; you get a wonderful array of lighting tools that have a similar color mixing system, which makes swapping fixtures or blending between systems very easy.

The Ovation 910FCs are a little long in the tooth. The KL Profiles are quite nice, though.

 

[almorton]

Don't forget about power switching.

 

[SteveB]

Don't forget about power switching.

And power and data cabling, as well as data distribution. You will want a boat load and more of 5&10 ft DMX cables and PowerCon cables.

 

[Crisp image]

I have used both the Chauvet 910FC and Reve E3.
The E3 are super bright. EG i did a lectern special with 2 of them (cool and warm) one was running at 5% and the other at 10%. The rest of the stage was dark because it was a presentation with projections. Even when the stage is bright we rarely run them over 40%. And if you need to you can use the S4 lenses on them too. The output will be reduced by a little if you do use them but there is plenty of reserve. They have a CRI at 95 (based on 3200k) which is good (910 are 84). The E3 are about 3 times brighter than the 910fc.
Like others have said, take the fixtures for a test drive and see what works for your space.
Have a great day
Geoff

 

[Lextech]

My experience is that if you are replacing S4s lamped at 750 the Ovation Reve E3 is the way to go. We have those, Colorsource Spots and Spot V and the CS units don't come close to the E3 in terms of brightness. That being said, get a demo and shoot them out. We demoed the original CS, E3 and the Series 3 and were surprised at the the results.

 

[JChenault]

IMHO there is more to think about here than intensity. There is also color spectrum. My preference ( or prejudice ) is that the more distinct LED emitters you have ( especially in front light ) the happier you will be. the Human eye is very flexible and able to deal with different intensity values. IE if you take your Grand Master down 20 percent few people will notice. If your fixture distorts the color of costumes, or faces there is no good solution.

based on that opinion ( prejudice) I would strongly consider the ETC Lustr X8 series for at least front light.

as others have said do a shoot out. But also get some colored fabric, painted surfaces, human skin on the stage as part of the shootout. Put up an incandescent fixture with gel to compare color rendition to the candidate fixtures. Sure this is a lot of work, but you will be living with this decision for years.


Edited to correct fat fingers/autocorrect of incandescent. Although an incense scent fixture sounds like an interesting technology

 

[derekleffew]

... Put up an incense scent fixture with gel ...

One of the best Malapropism's I've ever seen! Thank you, auto-co-wrecked. Incandescent. Smells like old, hot dust.

 

[JonCarter]

Derek, that's to get him in the mood to compare colors, don't ya know.

 

[Ford]

John is right that you'll want to have costumes and/or set pieces to shoot at, especially for front light. Also, that the total In the Reve color system, although we separate control into 5 colors, we actually use a wider variety of color. you can see it when you pull the lens out.

You can good a very good idea of the quality of light from the TM-30 Rf and Rg scores. This will give you an idea of how the light will mix to color temperatures, and desaturated colors.

I can talk for hours about quantifying color.... But what it boils down to (for me) is that in front light, I want to see very strong TM-30 scores; Rf (fidelity) is wanting to be as high as possible on a scale up to 100 (similar to CRI), for Rg (gamut) the score actually goes over 100, I prefer it to be slightly above 100 (I target 105), allowing for a little extra saturation.

It is worth using the TM-30 to narrow down the field, and give you an idea of what you want to shoot out.

 

[gafftaper]

Have to agree with @JChenault about the quality of light and the variety of color emitters used to create that light being the critical factor. I would only consider the Reve E3 and the Lustr X8 as they have the best color engines. I have a few Reve's and wish I had more.

Do a shoot out on your stage. Use actors in a variety of costumes and painted set pieces. Let your eyes decide!

 

[RickR]

It is worth using the TM-30 to narrow down the field, and give you an idea of what you want to shoot out.

I'm glad to see theatrical people talking about TM30. We know color, but have really fallen down discussing white. CRI is a joke (IMHO) and color temp is only a vague direction.

TM-30 Simplified - DMF Lighting

Understanding the basics of TM-30 in relation to CRI, and why it's important

www.dmflighting.com

 

[Malabaristo]

Also, that the total In the Reve color system, although we separate control into 5 colors, we actually use a wider variety of color. you can see it when you pull the lens out.

It looks like just six according to the specs: red, green, blue, royal blue, amber, mint. I find it odd that you don't split out control of the two blues in any of the DMX profiles. Is that a software choice, or are those two colors actually driven together in hardware? As a designer, I would much rather have 8-bit control of all six colors individually than 16-bit control of five colors with the sixth being set to something I don't have direct control over. Even for intensity, 16-bit control is really only necessary if your 8-bit math sucks.

 

[Krispyduck]

Hi all,

Thanks for the quick response's & advise.

We have thought alot of the infrastructure out already. Luckily we have dimmers that are changeable for relays , so planning on adding at least two to every LX bar ( 6 Bars - change out first and last dimmer to hots) and order a butt load of Dmx cable for links. Luckily we were blessed when the building was built that at every powered bar there are wall mounted x2 hots and dmx port. I know ill probably have to start looking into network switches at some point to accommodate multiple universes.

Over the week Ive taken on the Color source V spot & Ovation 910.

Impressed with both , but more impressed with colour output and gel matching with Eos with the V obviously. Strength wise i didnt notice too much difference between the two to be honest. Though both didn't seem to match the intensity of a source 4 tungsten. Others have said the Ovation does live up to it but I didnt see it. Also worried as someone mentioned above , the ovation is getting on in years at this stage, 5 yr warranty on engine compared to ETC's 10 year with solid support.

Doesnt look like any local hire places have a reve 3 in their stock unfortunately but the advise above sounds solid. I had forgot to mention budget constraints , Luster 3 is not even an option at its price. Our range would be 1500-2000euro per unit and I think Reve 3 is just outside it.

 

[Krispyduck]

UPDATE ;

Recieved a demo Reve 3e , and was quite impressed. Probably the only lamp I have tested that lives up to the brightness of a S4 Hpl 750. I was also impressed with its representation of 3200k, it was actually closer on the 3100k setting to the 3200k of a Hpl 750.

One thing I haven't had the chance to test it through is the ETC colour swatches, due to the space being occupied. Can anyone share their thoughts on its workings with EOS software or which might be the best dimming curve. I do plan on recycling our lens tubes from the old S4's but found one little quirk, when using the yokes they are very close to the shutters when opened, you need to closer a shutter to tighten or loosen the yoke.

 

[Crisp image]

UPDATE ;
I do plan on recycling our lens tubes from the old S4's but found one little quirk, when using the yokes they are very close to the shutters when opened, you need to closer a shutter to tighten or loosen the yoke.

Yes found the same with the yokes. A PITA when you have the yoke shortened. With the yoke at full length no problems but some lighting positions will not allow a long yoke.

 

[Krispyduck]

Yes found the same with the yokes. A PITA when you have the yoke shortened. With the yoke at full length no problems but some lighting positions will not allow a long yoke.

Can I ask how you find your units and their general use is for Crisp?

 

[Crisp image]

Well I look at my FOH bridge and there they are! Yeah I know a bad dad joke!. We use them foir FOH wash and specials. I like them a lot. They are bright but when you turn them down they don't change colout like a convential does. We regulary run them at <40%. I have just installed in another venue but have yet to use them. I will let you know when I have a go with them. They are a FOH wash.
Regrds
Geoff

 

[Krispyduck]

Well I look at my FOH bridge and there they are! Yeah I know a bad dad joke!. We use them foir FOH wash and specials. I like them a lot. They are bright but when you turn them down they don't change colout like a convential does. We regulary run them at <40%. I have just installed in another venue but have yet to use them. I will let you know when I have a go with them. They are a FOH wash.
Regrds
Geoff

Dad jokes rock!

Did you try the red shift setting , its supposed to emulate the tungsten shift in color.