What to do with 700MHz wireless equipment now?

[museav]

you could donate it to a church with a mission program that they could use on there mission fields most paces in africa,philipines,,etc.. dont have any sort of restrictions on there frequencys and could bless someone i think it could also be a tax writeoff..check your local chrches ask them about there missions see what u can do

Since groups like the ITU are international you might be surprised to find how many countries do have some restrictions. And even if there are no issues with use on the other end, there can still be issues with exporting RF equipment from the US to some countries. Has anyone actually looked into the proper process to donate wireless mics to those outside the US?

Tax implications would be interesting as far as determining a value. What is the legal value for a US tax deduction on something that is illegal to operate in the US?

 

[wolf825]

Tax implications would be interesting as far as determining a value. What is the legal value for a US tax deduction on something that is illegal to operate in the US?

I would say that is a question folks should ask their state county or government representative or congress person..if anyone has experience in such things it would be them..


-w

 

[TDjohn]

Quite frankly, any church using 700 megs gear should be pointed towards the FCC order and thereafter to Romans 13:1-7...

There ought be no further discussion needed...

My reply to this post is just in fun - caveat - please take it as such.

There are 2 parts. 1 - the details; 2- the fun.

Me, I was a philosophy major BA that ended up doing theater. I don't get to talk philo much anymore.

PART 1-

I am still using "700 megs gear." We finally started to have issues. After such issues, the powers are now beginning to become interested in an upgrade. I will use all of your helpful logic to advance that cause. Thanks.

Money is the controlling factor - regardless of FCC changes.

New mics cost $$$. Wen need quite a few of them. Right now, we are taxed at just the 12 channels we have. The director always wants more people mic'd. I think we need 18. A friend of mine put very high end mics into an install and had trouble getting 12 to work at the same time. Many systems top out at 16 units working at once. I have no experience over 12 wireless mics working at once. They do work, tho. I put in two separate sony 6 packs. I spent about a day changing frequencies to get them to play nice. Most system specs look like 16 units working together is a stretch)


2-

So if you care to indulge....


{Warning: You might not want to preach this to people in Egypt.}


Romans 13:1-7 (New International Version, ©2011)
<quote>
Romans 13
Submission to Governing Authorities
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

<end quote>


Me: If you think this means that the government is the highest authority, then
Go to:

Understanding Romans 13:1-7

This is a quote from that page. There is a lot more there.

<quote>

Understanding Romans 13:1-7

How are we going to overcome Romans 13? What was Apostle Paul really saying? The best way to bring understanding on Romans 13 is to ask, "Who was apostle Paul writing to at Rome?" The answer is found at Romans 1:7: Paul was writing to all those in Rome who are "beloved of God, called to be saints." He was not writing to the general population at Rome. He was specifically addressing the "called out ones," the Body of Christ.

If apostle Paul was advocating obedience to secular authorities, then Caesar would have no cause against him. Why would Caesar have Paul beheaded if he was promoting obedience to Rome?

The world loves its own. If Paul belonged to Caesar, Caesar would not want to kill his own. If Paul was promoting "be subject to Caesar," then Paul would be Caesar's friend. You would not kill your own. You don't destroy the very instrument that advertises for you.

The truth is that Apostle Paul was beheaded for promoting a rival government known as the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven. Already this new government was turning the world upside down. Caesar had Paul killed to help stop this threat to Rome's power.

If Romans 13 does not mean "obey the State," what does it mean? Romans 13 means, "Remember them which have the rule over you," as you will also find at Hebrews 13:7. Since Paul was addressing the saints at Rome, it is logical that he would instruct them to submit to those who look after their souls. It is a reminder to be obedient to the authorities God has placed over His people. For they are truly the "ministers of God to thee for good." Unlike worldly rulers, God's ministers are not a terror to good works but to the evil. Therefore, "do that which is good and thou shalt have praise of the same."....


<End quote>

Hmm. I'm not sure I agree with all that, but it does make one wonder if it OK to use "outlawed" frequencies if one is not likely to get caught.

The person who said "I have heard of authorities going into churches" should site sources. That would make a lousy headline that FOX would definitely pick up.


Talk is talk...example.

Sometimes, I hear from outside the theater (where we have 52 people on the cru list) that "the crew is unhappy with 'ASM -#1'."

I ask, "What did you hear, and how many times did you hear this."

Them, " ... a few."

Me, " 2 times?"

Them, "Yes, I think 2 is right."

Lesson to remember: 4% dissatisfaction can be dealt with rather easily...

We have something here called "the 5% rule." The theory goes, that at any one time 5% of a group of people will be dissatisfied about something. If you manage that dissatisfaction, you can keep larger revolts from erupting.

Are we back to discussing Romans 13 (or Egypt) already?

Happy Sunday,

John

 

[jstroming]

And I'm sorry to sound like a jerk here but, its people like these that cause the fines for using unauthorized frequencies being so high. I know if i know of anyone who is using this spectrum i politely tell them that they need to replace the wireless mic's now or i will not work the show. It's as much as the owners responsibility to make sure they are within the law for the borrowed spectrum as the end user is.

Just remember wireless mics don't have to be allowed they are because its a nicety. There are no laws saying we get to use them just human overlooks as to the spectrum we use.

Have you really ever turned down a job because a theater used a mic in the 700Mhz range?

People need to quit the fear mongering about the 700MHz band. It's been mentioned COUNTLESS times on this forum and others. We know it's illegal. We know some real "smart" technicians on this forum have threatened turning CHURCHES in for operating in the 700MHz range.

If you're not responsible for purchase decisions at your facility/company, then write a letter to your boss explaining that microphones in the 700Mhz range are illegal. DON'T threaten them. DON'T call the FCC like a jackass. Copy the letter, date & sign, then send to your boss. If you really have a problem with it, then quit. Someone a lot smarter then you will gladly take your place.

 

[museav]

Money is the controlling factor - regardless of FCC changes.

John, I think this comment goes to the core of the matter for many. I also see it as a baseless argument, not having the money to replace offending units is one thing, continuing to use something that is violating the law and potentially hurting others as a matter of convenience for yourself, wired mics may are always an option, is another. Continuing to use 700MHz wireless mics is a bit like not paying your taxes because you wanted to spend the money on a new big screen TV instead or refusing to serve in the Armed Forces when called because it wasn't convenient for you at that time. There may be legitimate reasons for such actions but doing so due to not wanting to spend the money required to continue doing something you elect to do is not a legitimate reason.

While it may seem extreme, Duck actually had a valid point in that if you know that the wireless mics being used are illegal and partake in their operation then you may incur some of the related liability. Refusing to work a show may be unrealistic, but at least for adults who could be deemed responsible for their actions, getting a waiver signed saying that you have made the responsible party aware of the issue, that you are being directed to use the offending units and that they assume all related liability might not be a bad idea. It's also the kind of document that might make those making such decisions take it a bit more seriously.

 

[TDjohn]

John, I think this comment goes to the core of the matter for many. I also see it as a baseless argument, not having the money to replace offending units is one thing, continuing to use something that is violating the law and potentially hurting others as a matter of convenience for yourself, wired mics may are always an option, is another. Continuing to use 700MHz wireless mics is a bit like not paying your taxes because you wanted to spend the money on a new big screen TV instead or refusing to serve in the Armed Forces when called because it wasn't convenient for you at that time. There may be legitimate reasons for such actions but doing so due to not wanting to spend the money required to continue doing something you elect to do is not a legitimate reason.

While it may seem extreme, Duck actually had a valid point in that if you know that the wireless mics being used are illegal and partake in their operation then you may incur some of the related liability. Refusing to work a show may be unrealistic, but at least for adults who could be deemed responsible for their actions, getting a waiver signed saying that you have made the responsible party aware of the issue, that you are being directed to use the offending units and that they assume all related liability might not be a bad idea. It's also the kind of document that might make those making such decisions take it a bit more seriously.

Oh, I understand what you are saying. I actually plan to follow the advice of the more conservative members of this forum. It just takes time.

Pass the buck ASAP is an interesting approach.

{ No I do not advocate quitting a job over mic frequency. I do however like the "educate the bean counters approach."}

Blind conformity to law is not actually part of a free society. Personally, I feel the FCC (+PTB) may even know that it takes a while for old product to become obsolete. If it is not sold nor supported, it goes out of use. Rather quickly actually. I think this issue will resolve itself. I see it happening. I do not believe that we need more police at this time.

In my case, the problems with my mics are not interference with authorities, but actually age induced breakdowns. So, I am not the outlaw you seem to imagine. I am just a guy with a crazy production schedule who has to work hard to keep things up and working. Getting replacement gear requires more effort. I just did 10 - 12's (10 days 12 hours each) in a row - preceded by 5 - 8's. All that time was spent on the shows - not long term planning, nor infrastructure.

What I really need first is more help.

Now, about all this "black and white always follow the law" business: I have to tell you that I know very few people who drive the speed limit all the time. I know people who keep medications past their exp date. I even know people who don't get their tax returns in on time. Some actions are more risky than others. Some come with fines. I see nothing to suggest that the government should come down hard on any one who does not tow the line 100% of the time. Imagine if they had to build a prison just for stage techs - the craft services people would go nuts.

There are human factors to all of this. It is very easy to claim that the world is black and white and that one should follow a strict interpretation of all laws to the letter. That is just one view. We have many lawyers to argue these points - when that time comes.

In case you can't tell, I thought the Romans argument was silly. There isn't even a clear interpretation of Romans across the christian spectrum - let alone something that you can apply to everyone in a free society.

So what I say is, "Do your best, try hard to follow spec, and make sure the show works - if you can." Incidentally, being in spec makes it a lot easier to troubleshoot later.

My actual budget and gear cycles have turned out to be a bit longer than that one government agency decided they should be. I am working to fix that. It is just taking a little longer than expected.

You know some people still operate rouge radio stations and ham gear, too. It's a crazy world out there.

John

PS. I am not going to cut my hair either.

 

[mstaylor]

I understand you dilema but continued use could cause interference with emergency services. You would have to assess that likelihood in your area. I exceed speed limits and other small indiscretion but I follow the rules with lifts, forks and climbing things.

 

[Chris15]

In case you can't tell, I thought the Romans argument was silly. There isn't even a clear interpretation of Romans across the christian spectrum - let alone something that you can apply to everyone in a free society.

I agree that you can't apply it to free society. But I never said you should. I explicitly made the comment with regard to churches. In most traditional interpretations of the text it is relevant. But there again we've had that same Bible used to justify all manner of wars, slavery and various other things opinion has since changed on...

I am not sure it is wise for us to get into a religious debate. It's dangerous territory for maintaining the cornerstone values of CB of Mutual respect etc...

 

[museav]

John, no argument that people decide to knowingly break the law every day. My point was really simply that not having funds to replace wireless mics does not prohibit compliance with the law. The law prohibits operating non-compliant RF systems, it does not say that you must replace them with compliant systems. And wired mics are always not only a potential option but the preferred technical option, so continuing to knowingly operate non-compliant RF systems is a conscious choice to do so despite having other options. Everyone can make their own choice, but that is what it is, a choice and not some condition imposed without any options to be compliant or some right taken away. It is not "we can't afford to be compliant" but rather "we choose to not be compliant" for which money and convenience may be components in that choice.

I also agree that it is important to consider that some of the 700MHz spectrum has been assigned for 'first responder' life safety use and people like Shure have been saying for months how the first time that emergency personnel responding at a school or church having their communications blocked by wireless mics in use at the site could be a very interesting situation, especially if it negatively impacts the response or the care of someone.

 

[TDjohn]

Yes, in both cases.

I didn't say, but maybe should have, that my feelings were really running in the direction of "I have no intention of turning in a church, or anyone else."

Not that that changes anything...

(I have already started to make the hard case for my new wireless system - with your help.)

So, do we know the when + the how of these frequencies' use? I can't imagine a situation were the responder gear wouldn't be tested. In such a situation where it is reasonable to assume that some trouble could be anticipated, the authorities would normally test gear extensively.

We work in this field and this subject is just sinking in. What about the many churches & community theaters where the sound tech is new this weekend - the first guy to walk into the space. How is that place going to change?

Just thinking....

 

[dannymusic]

Once Verizon and ATT break out the G5 network, all 700mHz non believers will understand what interference sounds like. ATT and V paid $$$$$$$$ for 2 big blocks. And what was left is labeled EMERGENCY BAND. Repent... the end is nearer (for 700 users) then you think.... Your show will pay the price.

 

[DiscoBoxer]

I can't imagine a situation were the responder gear wouldn't be tested. In such a situation where it is reasonable to assume that some trouble could be anticipated, the authorities would normally test gear extensively.

Critical services such as those that use the emergency band, do have some expectation of breakdown in communications from time to time and have protocols in place to deal with such. However, when a non natural death occurs, there is almost always an investigation. Some agencies will do their due dilligence and follow details to the full extent and some do not.

Example: Kid gets into car accident pulling out of the school grounds. First responder makes an attempt to notify incoming medical that child is going into shock from significant blood loss, but radio transmission is walked on from interference. First truck onsite doesn't have the proper equipment and another vehicle must role to stabilize for transport. Child dies during the delay.

Even in a case where the child was likely to parish, despite the EMT response, an investigation will take place. If the officer(s) that completes the investigation speak to the first responder and note that this person had a failed transmission, they could choose to leave it as a note or follow through. However, in many situations where a family member dies prematurely, families are unpreparred and will seek every detail in search for answers and healing. They could choose to pursue litigation and likely would. All proven knowing responsible parties are "open-season".

To take it another step further, if the local media caught wind that the death potentially could have been saved, but failed due to interference, a witch hunt will follow. Tax payers would not be thrilled with multi-million dollar communication systems for life support failing over a $500 John Doe equipment interference.

My intent is to not so much create fear and be hard nose about human nature, but it is worse in my opinion to plead ignorance when that was not actually true. Too many people want to excuse themselves from responsibility because of "their inconvenience", well, me personally, I would much rather put my name on the fight to be in compliance than an investigation report that detailed my contribution to someones death.

Another example of where this is evident but not as serious: try telling the judge that you didn't get the letter saying your license plate is expired before you got pulled over. I am betting that the judge will not accept the excuse of ignorance.

The chances of this happening might be slim in most parts of this country, but my question would be is it worth it?

I will step down from my soap-box now.

 

[gcpsoundlight]

to be honest, it should be quite simple: if it is illegal to use it, stop using it!

On another note, I am not 100% sure about the USA, but down under, the ACMA (Australian Communications and Media Authority) don't always respond to complaints from single parties, and they will want recordings, logs etc. before even thinking about looking into it. However, the fines for illegal transmittion are huge! Then again, australia can still use 700MHZ (I hope so anyway! Just setup 30 mics between 600 and 750!)

 

[Chris15]

Then again, australia can still use 700MHZ (I hope so anyway! Just setup 30 mics between 600 and 750!)

2 and a half years and they are gone.

 

[gcpsoundlight]

bugger!!!!!!

 

[Chris15]

694 is expected to be the magic number, but yep come the end of 2013, you would be unwise to rely on anything above that being available and legal...

 

[Fibredude]

I am new to the forum and have read much here as well as online elsewhere.
My situation is that I am a Volunteer Sound Director/operator that began purchasing Sennheiser EW100 G1 and G2 model for live theatre reinforcement for my wife's after-school Drama program and other community theatre endeavors over the past 8 years.
I never charged for the use of these units as they were a gift of services by me. This is not a business of mine.. (boy do I wish I could make a living at doing this... )

So now unfortunately I have 15 units all extremely well kept.. with no way to use them and I would really like to figure out the best way to turn them into some $$$ so I can re-invest in some G3 units... which of course are now 35% more expensive than my 700Mhz units since I was lucky enough to get some good deals back when...

The other option if anyone knows is how to go about retro fitting these units back down to the 600 or 500Mhz range.. I have been searching and watching the internet over the past 2 years hoping that somewhere an RF/Eng hobbyist who is as pissed at the decision to sell off the entire C Band under the guise to promote a secure Micro band for Public safety whilst the Fed makes large $$$$$ on selling the remainder to the large Telco corps.
I have contacted Sennheiser and of course the lower end EW line is not a candidate to be re-tuned. There is really no desire on there part since there is new product to be marketed and sold so the motivation not to strand small operations such as churches.. local Comm. Theatres or school programs didn't make it to the Sennheiser Board room.

So if anyone knows about how someone has been successful in either selling there Sennheiser units overseas or how to retro the freq's on these please advise...

Unfortunately, I no longer have the same "Day Job" I once had that allowed me to spend my disposable income on expensive sound toys for volunteer use....(2 kids in college now) ...

Many thanks
Fibredude...

 

[gcpsoundlight]

As much as it would be great to re use this equipment, I can be fairly sure that modifying RF equipment would void it's FCC approval, and make it illegal to operate again.

Shame Really....

 

[Ric]

2 and a half years and they are gone.

Indeed 2.5 years for the WHOLE process to be done. I'm watching this pretty closely as is most of VAPAC.
I'd suggest you plan to have all 700 meg stuff & above removed sooner.

A direct link to the ACMA site and information on Wireless mics in Oz.

ACMA - Wireless microphones

Summary of major points

• Wireless audio equipment is currently permitted to operate in the vacant spectrum between UHF television services (520-820 MHz)
• Following the switch-over from analog to digital television, the range 694-820 MHz will be cleared
• 520-694 MHz will continue to be used by television, and it is expected that wireless audio equipment will continue to operate in this range under similar arrangements to the current LIPD licence
• 694-820 MHz will be replanned, and allocated to other uses
• Planning is ongoing to determine the precise details of the use of wireless audio equipment in this range into the future.
• The ACMA's target date for completion of the digital restack process is the end of 2014
• The wireless audio industry will continue to be consulted throughout the planning process, in particular through AWAG.
• This page will be updated as the various planning processes affecting these issues are progressed.

Cheers,
Ric

 

[Chris15]

If there is any sense in Canberra, a stretch I realise, then first dibs on 700 megs spectrum will go to NBN Co.

Realistically, nothing can move forward until all analog TV is switched off. Until then they can't start the restack process and until everything is restacked, they can't release the spectrum.