What would you tell your AHJ?

[MNicolai]

I'm preparing for a couple talks I'm going to give this fall. One of them will be to our local first responders about the different scenarios they may have to respond to at a performance space, and another will be to AHJ and inspector/admin-types about how theaters operate and how to effectively inspect live event venues and how to work with venue staff (and how venues operate differently than promoters/directors).

I'll have tours available of our entire theatre for everyone to attend. Somewhere in the day we'll also have a small session with representatives of AHJ/venue/school present to formulate sane evacuation plans.

Our local police chief is also in on this, but I have yet to talk to him about what he wants to take away from our event.

If this is as scalable as I hope it is, I'll also invite firefighters from neighboring jurisdictions.

Topics I know I want to cover:
+ The different types of hazards in theaters (and why Fire is the least of our concerns)
+ How the dynamic differs in the relationships between AHJ, venue, rental clients, and school; why the school groups try to get away with the worst offenses.
+ Why theatre people don't like AHJ interfering with their art.
+ What I learned about event safety when I was fired on an event where I contacted AHJ with egress questions.
+ More TBD

So if you were to talk frankly with your AHJ/EMS/Police, what would you want to talk to them about?

What do you wish they understood about the live entertainment industry?

(and please be kind; this isn't going to turn into a talk titled "Reasons the Entertainment Industry Hates Fire Marshals)

 

[Footer]

First, eliminate EVERYTHING negative. There is no reason for that. They don't want to or need to hear the stories. They need to be familure enough with the venue to respond to a call and know what to expect when they come in. Hazards of the venue is a good idea. However, you don't need to and should not tell them "fire is the least of our concerns" because that is simply not true. Theatres are little tenderboxes just waiting to go up. So, don't assume anything. Don't teach these people how to do their jobs. Don't approach it like a class, because its not. Theses people are trained to respond to emergency situations, you are not. They will know what to ask and what to look for. Let them get familure with the space and how the venue operates. Talking down or negatively towards an AHJ is probably one of the worst moves you could make.

More importantly, don't throw your colleagues under the bus.

 

[chausman]

Depending on time, and if you have firefighters on the tour, is brief training on the flysystem. If you can't be in the building because of a fire, and for some reason, something had to be flown in/out, having some people trained might be a good thing.

What do you wish they understood about the live entertainment industry?

That directors complain and complain about how they can't do what they'd like to do for safety reasons, but that they do understand (or at least most of them) why it can't be done for what ever reason.

 

[MNicolai]

you should not tell them "fire is the least of our concerns" because that is simply not true.

I thoroughly and respectfully disagree. Modern theatres with active fire suppression systems are more likely to see any number of other incidents than they are a life-threatening fire.

I look at four qualities when assessing risk management:

1) Likelihood of a fire igniting.
2) Sustainability after a fire has been ignited or spread.
3) Historical precedence of similar, relevant scenarios.
4) Number of people involved and their anticipated reactions to a fire.

I've analyzed every room in our theatre and no room raises two or more of the above flags. With so much on stage being flame retarded (paints, fabrics, curtains), live flame usually prohibited, and sprinkler systems in place, it is both unlikely that a fire will ignite and should it, it would be doused by a fire hose, sprinkler head, or fire extinguisher well before it would pose a threat to people.

Smaller/older theatres may be more hazardous, particularly those lacking fire suppression (e.g. 150-seat community theatres), but in theatres of any size and those built recently, the only real flammable place is a costume shop or costume inventory room where there's lots of fuel (but also probably very few people).

Since the early/mid 1900's, there have been no significant fire in theatres (that I'm aware of). Certainly if you expand the scope to Performance Venues and include nightclubs and bars like The Station, there are a couple significant data points, but for the most part there are so many systems in place in the modern theatre that should a fire be ignited, it cannot be sustained and only poses a serious threat until the sprinkler systems are activated.

The Fabulous Fox theatre came close recently to being one of the first significant theatre fires in awhile, but it was a fire that occurred in a mechanical room during off-hours with no injuries or fatalities.

In practice, it's a far more regular occurrence for someone to fall from a height, have something dropped on them from a height, get injured in the scene shop, fall off of the stage and into the orchestra pit, receive an electrical shock, be the victim of poor emergency evacuation planning, or be shot at by a "prop gun" that is a live firearm loaded with blanks. The death/injury tolls are much smaller per incident (usually one), but historically we see at least one of these types of incidents reach the industry headlines every few weeks.

By saying a fire is of our least concern as a Modern, Sprinklered Theatre, is not to say it shouldn't be prepared for or actively prevented against; it's to say that there are many other, more likely ways for people to get injured in a theatre. Once the scope of this discussion is expanded to Performance Spaces or Community-Type theatres though, there are many more types of hazards and significant historical events to show fires can still happen and can still be deadly.

In any case, you only get one shot at these things. If the sprinklers fail to go off, or someone lights sparklers backstage and causes lots of costumes in storage to catch fire, nobody can afford to screw up that one opportunity to respond to that call fully prepared for what they may face, be the hazard due to fire, electrical, or otherwise. All plausible threats require attention.

Don't approach it like a class, because its not. Theses people are trained to respond to emergency situations, you are not. They will know what to ask and what to look for.

On the contrary, the point of the day is for them to learn what it is they don't about the things that they don't know about. For example -- they (as even many theatre people would) probably would overlook that when sprinkler systems go off, soft goods absorb the water and counterweight sets start to drift toward the ground as their battens deform. Just looking at the curtains, that is not a conclusion almost anyone would reach even under the context of emergency planning. While inspection staff may know the purpose of the fire curtain, most firefighters probably aren't aware that if they walk on stage through the proscenium arch, the fire curtain may come down while they are clearing the stage area and close off a potential exit route.

There are certain dots in these topics that I will have to the do the connecting for. Certainly I have no business telling anyone how to treat someone who's had a wrench dropped on their head from the grid or someone who has fallen from a height, but it is very relevant for me to talk about all of our fire protection systems in place and the ways in which at least several of them require unique considerations in theatres.

Talking down or negatively towards an AHJ is probably one of the worst moves you could make.

I don't know where you got the impression I was going to stand on stage for two hours and tell them all how much I don't like them, but that's not part of my plan. In fact, much of my material will be closely coordinated with the fire chief and his training committee so that I know I'm talking about things that are relevant and so that I don't go wandering off of the reservation to old war stories and anecdotes from Ye Olde Times.

More importantly, don't throw your colleagues under the bus.

Some of them may end up under the bus solely by their own actions. When we give the tours and someone asks what all of the costumes are doing being stored in the closed orchestra pit, there's no excuse I could make up for the costume people, especially given they've been warned before by a previous fire inspector who walked through, noticed their costumes, and said, "I don't know what I'd be citing you for, but these probably shouldn't be here."

That said -- there are a couple anecdotes I would like to use, but none of them deal with any individuals being at fault. As tempting as it may be to share some of my war stories where someone was "wrong", an entire step of my process in planning this includes filtering out anything that may have the effect of Godwin's Law. Ideally, I want everyone (school/event-staff/fire-dept./AHJ) in the same room to be comfortable and I especially do not want anything I say about a particular entity to cause civil discourse to break down. In some cases, that'll take some careful wording and in others, there will simply be relevant material that is just plain unusable.

The largest problem I'll have with this is that the high school's drama director is not fond of how close I am with the fire dept. and AHJ, so as soon as he catches wind that this is going on and that I'll be touring firefighters through the building, he'll consider a deliberate but veiled attack from me on his fall production. Hopefully fair warning weeks in advance will be enough damage control, but there's no context under which he takes kindly to AHJ looking at his work (even if it's to say that it's acceptable and perfectly safe). At least the venue manager, building and grounds crew, and school's safety committee should not have any problems with them being on site.

The best litmus test I have for any questionable material is the local fire chief. He's advised me through several sticky situations before at my request and he'd be an excellent source for constructive criticism on any material that needs to be reframed, reworded, cut, or added.

 

[erosing]

My apologies for jumping around with this, but I lost parts of it a few times. Also, I'm glad that you seem to have a good relationship with your AHJ.

Fire and fire-like occurrences are your biggest concern (Tommy hitting his thumb with a hammer every week doesn't count), sorry, get used to it. One fire (even a false alarm), can kill more people than your building combined with carelessness and stupidity will over its life.

I worry more on your seeming perception that you won't suffer a fire, or the possibility of one, than I do your building actually catching on fire. But, it is a very real possibility, and there is always a risk. Just because you haven't heard about a "significant" fire doesn't mean fires don't happen, and similarly that things you may think are a fire won't happen. Fire prevention mechanisms do not guarantee your safety, your patron's safety, nor the buildings. They will all help, but keep in mind we still have fires going up left and right even though there is a 635 page almanac of the basic fire codes, and there are the other thousands of pages written in the other 100's of code documents. Speaking of which, I assume you have copies of at least NFPA 1, 30, 70, 70E, and 101 on hand (depending on your fire systems, storage, and manufacturing there's a number of other ones you should probably get), that you've at least skimmed through all of them, and that you strictly adhere to the practices outlined or better. At least, that is what I am assuming from how you speak of your buildings highly unlikely ability to catch fire.

Forgive me, but I forget does your venue deals with students and student workers on a frequent basis? Yes, it's relevant, but we'll get to that later.

Now, I do see this meeting as a good idea, but more aligned between you and Footer than against one of you. Yes, walk them through the space, they will probably forget it but they can point things out that you aren't aware of, and ask you questions they have. Do not lecture them, they know exactly why schools, community theaters (some, NOT all), and parties/weddings break the most codes. They know they are too cheap, don't care, or "but it's only for one night." If someone wants to light their art on fire, they have this festival in the desert I've heard about, don't waste their time. I don't really see why you getting fired from something is relevant here, but I'm still going to go with, don't waste time. Do point out hazards, like yes a fly system is a hazard, but if your fire curtain is down, and no one is inside, they won't be standing under them. Not to forget that there are many more hazards than a fly system. Yes, formulate a solid evacuation plans, let them spend their time working on this, and coming up with a safe and proper procedure that you will document and place everywhere later. On that part, making sure that someone on each shift is designated to be communicating with the fire department in the case of a fire, someone that will know how many people should be standing in the evacuation area, where the fire is, and intimate knowledge of the building, you have no idea how much time this can save. Ask them what the local restrictions for materials, liquids, and gases are, document this and post it later. Similarly, find out what their requirements on soft goods are. Don't forget about storage either, raw lumber, liquids, gasses, soft goods, tools, vacuums, equipment, etc.

Now, I'm not an expert on fire curtains, but if it isn't down before the fire department gets there and the fire is in the venue, you did something wrong. If the fire is enough you called 911, you should be evacuating and dropping that fire curtain, long before anyone gets there. The whole point of one is to contain the fire so the building can be properly evacuated. As your drapery soaks, it should sink down gradually to a point until the weight is relieved enough from the batten that the arbor side is once again in balance, it shouldn't come crashing down on anyone, not that anyone should be in there by that point anyways.

While you shouldn't throw them under the bus, if they didn't take care of the situation to the advice of the AHJ, you should or your boss should. There shouldn't be any blame on the costumes department, you're a team, you fall as a team, you didn't remedy it either. It should never be, "yeah, costumes will take care of their mess eventually," it should be, "oh, we'll take care of our mistake and not do it again."

If the high school's drama teacher is engaging in unsafe practices, you have a duty to step in and rectify, or have your boss do it. The only way to stop those practices is to act on them and find a better solution together.

Now, since we're talking about safety here, you're also planning on talking about natural disasters, right? Tornado, earthquake, flooding, etc. Do you use fall prevention devices? If you do you'll be talking about a rescue plan, right? You've got a plan for gas and CO2, also, right? What if the fire starts when no one is there, will someone be contacted, if so, whom?

One more thing, your entire building staff has been trained to use a fire extinguisher, right? If not, you should be getting someone from the fire department out there now to do it.

--

So story time, just to help get some of my point across, particularly that a walkthrough is a good idea, that having an appointed delegate to the fire department in an emergency is needed, that you don't here about everything that gets reported, and that your seeming disbelief that a fire or fire-like emergency will be a problem in your venue.

About 3 years ago now, we were in rehearsal with a production, I believe it was the night before opening but it might have been two out. Anyways, about 9:00 we start smelling something funny, you know, that smoldering type of smell, none of the alarms went off, and it could only be smelled from back of house and the booth. We let rehearsal go on while we searched so as to not cause a panic, but had the stage manager ready to evacuate. We searched everywhere on the main floors, couldn't find a source, still no fire alarm. We report back and alert the stage manager we we're going to the basement, none of us are thrilled about this.

We head into the basement, and there it is. The smell was much more concentrated, but no smoke, no heat, no alarm. We moved deeper, into the unfinished portion, and the smell was so thick we turned back knowing that if there was a fire, it was there, and if there was that we had no way of fighting it with our puny extinguishers and little lighting. We jolted back up and evacuated everyone and called it in exactly as what we thought, "that something smells like its burning but there is no visible smoke or fire.

About two and a half minutes later there were more ladders, engines, police, and I think there was an ambulance too, than we could see or count. Their first question, "is everyone accounted for?" Yes, our stage manager had already accounted for everyone and lead them to the evacuation zone. Next question, "where is the source?" We said we believed it was in the basement, and they asked for someone to show them. Thankfully, there were people familiar with the building there that night, because the basement is an interesting one to say the least. Had this happened the week earlier, those firefighters would have been going in blind. Anyways, they search it out, and come back to report they smelled it too, that it didn't smell normal, and that they were going to search the rest of the building, once again, one of the people intimate with the building went in with the teams and the others stayed out talking about the building and where possible sources were with the captain. They come back and searched everything but a few of the closed off areas, and needed once again, the person who knew the building and the state that those closed off portions were in to guide them. Anyways, after about an hour and a half, they concluded that it must have been the furnace burning off dust. They said that we did right by calling it in and having the place evacuated and to call them back if it happened again.

There was no fire, but had this happened with an audience, we would have evacuated immediately. We had multiple people that knew the building and could help the firefighters. Even though we closed off two streets with fire trucks, nothing was ever in the papers, theatre back channels, the staff had no idea until we brought it up. So don't plan on the fact that things don't happen just because you don't here about them. A fire emergency, doesn't always consist of a fire. After this, everyone was given a building walk through, and pointed to hazardous items.

--

My point is that there are risks you take, and risks you don't. Thinking a fire emergency is low on your list is one risk you shouldn't be taking.

 

[Footer]

My fire marshal is in at least weekly. When we are busy she might stop in daily. Here is what we reguarly talk about:
-Is the show that is in right now current on all NFPA 701 certs?
-Are all stairwells (we have 10) clear?
-Are all elevators functioning properly and recalling correctly?
-Is the firewall working properly?
-Is the smokes bypass and wall abort buttons working properly?
-Are all emergency lights/exit signs working properly?
-Has everyone on staff read the emergency evacuation book?
-Is the show we have in doing anything to endanger the audience or venue?
-Does the knox box have current keys in it?

Thats really about it. Any AHJ main focus is going to be getting any person in the building to safety in the event of a fire/tornado/earthquake/etc. Thats it. The building can burn to the ground as long as the people are safe. No firefighter is going to go into the building unless it is to get someone out who is injured.

Its great to have a conversation. It really is. Being on a first name basis with your AHJs can help out many things. First, its going to allow them to trust you to do what you need to do. At the same time, you have to trust them to do what they do as well. You can not and should not use them to get something you want or to get someone in your staff in trouble. You should help correct the oversight before the AHJs come in. Be sure everything works. Be sure everything is up to code. If they think for one second that you are letting things happen unsafe under their nose, your going to lose all trust with them. If you missed something glaring, they will assume you missed everything else.

As Arez said, its not an us vs them. Your one venue. If you have a show in that is going against fire code, get it fixed before it goes on stage. If someone in the venue is doing something wrong, once again, fix it. Its your venue. Its your ass on the line is things go south, so don't let it get to that point. It does not matter what show I have in, if something is wrong, the plug gets pulled and we figure something else out. If that means moving the entire band 2' US to clear the fire wall even if the guitar tech and road manager are pissed off, so be it. If the FOH guy has to keep his processing rack next to the console instead of 90... so be it as well. Keeping things safe is a constant effort on all parties. You have to be just as accountable as anyone else.

 

[MNicolai]

Arez and Footer,

You've both made some gigantic assumptions about how much control I have over what other people do. I am merely a hired hand for a few events each month who occasionally does some facilities maintenance and provides consulting when my expertise on a topic is requested. All I can do about something someone else is doing is tell them my professional opinion and hope they take it. I have a little more authority when it comes to students and rental clients, but not when it comes to other people working for the school district.

I also do not appreciate the assertions you've both made, that because I am not afraid of the same things that you are to the same extent as you are that I am therefore dangerous.

I feel like I've already said this, but let me reiterate that just because I don't think that fires are the modern theatre's worst enemy does not mean that I do not take them seriously.

I take fire and all other hazards very seriously, to the extent there is one local who refuses to hire me anymore because he didn't like that I invited the fire marshal to inspect my sets.

Neither of you know me, and I resent that you have taken what should have been an opportunity for a friendly, interesting conversation, and turned it into a thread on how clearly reckless I must be and then listed all of the things I shouldn't ever do.

And thus my CB hiatus begins.

 

[erosing]

It will still be your butt on the line too if something were to happen, no matter how much power you have or don't have. And you have made it sound as though you have a good amount of influence where you're working.

You are also not the only person that will draw information from this thread, now or in the future.

 

[museav]

"What would you tell your AHJ", "why Fire is the least of our concerns", "Why theatre people don't like AHJ interfering with their art" and a plan to tell the AHJ how to effectively inspect a venue and work with the venue staff. It may not be the message or general perspective you intended to convey but just taken at face value that seems to be defining an effort quite different than discussing what you wish they understood about performance venues or how you may work together more effectively.

Based on my experience, I would tend to focus on working to identify and understand their priorities and goals and then discussing with them how those could still be achieved while possibly reducing the impact on performance venue facilities, staff and operations. Unless you are truly qualified to be telling AHJs how to do their job then I can see trying to help them understand some of the factors specific to performance venues but avoiding at all costs it being perceived as telling them how you think they should do their job. Make it about benefiting them, not you.

I personally think that one of the major factors that seems to be missing is that much of what AHJs do is based on code. While what you think and the specific issues associated with theatres may be valuable information to them and great topics for discussion, it is trumped by code. And that works both ways, an AHJ not only has to focus on code compliance but they may also need or want to avoid assuming liability for addressing anything other than code compliance.

To put it all succinctly, I think you'd be better off to be asking them what they would like to know and how you can help them rather than asking us what we would like to tell them.

 

[mstaylor]

An interesting discussion. I deal with Fire Marshalls in different venues all the time. Fire is something to be concerned about and as such you should walk them through and explain the devices and procedures in place in case of fire. Sprinklers, fire curtain, alarms, evac routes and anything else needed. Any fire hatches and how they are controlled is very important. Any combustable storage, batteries, costumes, drapes and paint are important areas to make them aware of.
Next is other areas of concern that may make them respond. Scene shop, fly or rigging areas and concession stands are all areas where injuries can happen. Easiest ways in for ambulance is also important things.
Beyond that they will have their own ideas of what is important and what is not.

 

[jglodeklights]

I know Mike has decided to leave, but I did want to point out that there have, in fact, been significant fires at several theatres/performance venues in recent years. Mormon Tabernacle (recently), North Shore Music Theatre, and Temple University have all had major fires, all fortunately while there was no audience in the building. They were significant. Anytime lives are at risk (which in all three situations there were as fire fighters are putting themselves in a hazardous situation just by being there), a fire is significant.

 

[mstaylor]

The arena I work in is actually the second building there. The first one, a wood structure, burned down, fast and complete. My AHJ is very aware of fire safety violations. The small hall, built in 1974, is also a similar wood structure. When I started there we call it the new room.
Just because there are much better fire suppression systems doesn't mean fires can't start. Fires and crowds are bad even with sprinklers and auto alarms.

 

[josh88]

One thing that always stands out in my mind is that the last fire marshal I worked with kept stressing the point that just because everything is flame/fire retarded does not make it flame/fire proof it was a good point. lots of people I've worked with say, oh its got flame retardant, we don't have to worry about it. but that doesn't mean it won't still burn and is a hazard, too many people I feel take that as an end all and write it off the safety list