BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
You besmirch the term "consultant" or confuse it with "salesman".
Worries about a new system proposal for our high school.
- Thread starterAndrew738
- Start date
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Question to posters, what is your guess to what the price on the op's bom is? Maybe as little as $15,000 and maybe as much as $75,000?
FWIW, I probably can't consider consulting in that scope of work for less than $3000-5000, most of that in a trip to site to assess and learn. How does this place get good advice! The lower the funds available, the greater the need for help IMHO. Tough problem.
FWIW, I probably can't consider consulting in that scope of work for less than $3000-5000, most of that in a trip to site to assess and learn. How does this place get good advice! The lower the funds available, the greater the need for help IMHO. Tough problem.
Both, actually. And I do apologise if you were offended. ((In politician's terms... if YOU (clearly your fault) were offended by something I (intending absolutely no harm) said, I'll apologize anyway even though I did nothing wrong.))
Hey, at least I'm coming around to seeing the value of your approach of putting in all non-dim/switched circuits and using a smattering of single, at-the-fixture dimmers for the conventionals. That's a huge step for me.
1. They don't get good advice, they get sales proposals, as you've noted. But sometimes/often/rarely a friendly, local dealer or even (gasp) a manufacturer's rep., will have intentions other than solely the profit margin/making the sale.
2. There's this little forum, ControlBooth.com, you may have heard of it, where anyone can ask any question and get some useful and some not-so-useful answers.
Ok, so what system do you actually have in place now? Pictures would be helpful. When this thread started we all went straight to resistive dimmers... we are now sitting in a world with dimmers on a converter hooked up to an Element. Those are two very different things. How many fixtures are in your inventory? How many dimmers do you have? What are those dimmer rated at? Once again... pictures help.
Sounds to me like it might be an energy consultant, not a theatrical vendor. A vendor would want to sell a lot of stuff. Energy guys come in and only make money when they save district a lot of money energy costs, sometimes connected to the actual savings. In this case it seems like he may have put fixtures in at a cost level that the district will be able to pay off in one year of energy savings, and hopes to take in commission based on the sale, and energy savings in future years. It is essentially free for a district to hire these guys, and they end up saving a bunch of $ after doing it.
Our energy consultant refuses to do stage lighting, but has considered our house lights. He makes a bundle every 5-8 years replacing classroom fixtures, and the district save a lot of money. He recognizes that to do stage lighting correctly, there is a lot more required than basic lights to cover an area, so he doesn't think the savings is worth it in a short enough time frame to make it worth doing for his pocket. In addition, on stage, you don't use all the lights all the time, so energy savings is mitigated by the actual use of each fixture if purchased based on energy savings price.
Based purely on this hunch (- I may be completely wrong here) it sounds like your guy has found a huge space, that can be lit with very few expensive lights, where he feels he can make a lot of $ from the energy savings from the old system. If this is the case, they will disable/remove the old system entirely, rendering it impossible to use traditional fixtures because their use of energy will dramatically cut his bottom line, and the energy savings incurred by the district.
Since it looks like the OP is a student, he will have very little influence on this process, but maybe getting information in the hands of the right people can change the process before it gets too far - Energy contracts are for many years, and once in, you are not getting out without a buyout cost (again, making assumptions).
Our energy consultant refuses to do stage lighting, but has considered our house lights. He makes a bundle every 5-8 years replacing classroom fixtures, and the district save a lot of money. He recognizes that to do stage lighting correctly, there is a lot more required than basic lights to cover an area, so he doesn't think the savings is worth it in a short enough time frame to make it worth doing for his pocket. In addition, on stage, you don't use all the lights all the time, so energy savings is mitigated by the actual use of each fixture if purchased based on energy savings price.
Based purely on this hunch (- I may be completely wrong here) it sounds like your guy has found a huge space, that can be lit with very few expensive lights, where he feels he can make a lot of $ from the energy savings from the old system. If this is the case, they will disable/remove the old system entirely, rendering it impossible to use traditional fixtures because their use of energy will dramatically cut his bottom line, and the energy savings incurred by the district.
Since it looks like the OP is a student, he will have very little influence on this process, but maybe getting information in the hands of the right people can change the process before it gets too far - Energy contracts are for many years, and once in, you are not getting out without a buyout cost (again, making assumptions).
As fair as my influence over this I'm not 100% sure. I have connections with administration all they way to the super intendant as I have run a few events for them. So I would imagine I have some, Or at lest I could share what I have learned here, and what I know from working around and doing research.
That's not a "switch board," that's a patch panel (slider patch), for patching load circuits into dimmers. It's probably way past its intended life span, and should go away when a dimmer-per-circuit (or some dimmers and some switched-power devices) per circuit system is installed.
Not to mention the name plate that says "THEATER SWITCHBOARD".
This is not a new thread, but nobody commented on the pictures.
I see only 37 dimmers. The patch panel gives them access to all the circuits as needed.
It also looks like a boatload of non-dim circuits already exist.
ETC Element is already in place, so it would seem DMX is already in use with the old system.
I see only 37 dimmers. The patch panel gives them access to all the circuits as needed.
It also looks like a boatload of non-dim circuits already exist.
ETC Element is already in place, so it would seem DMX is already in use with the old system.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Except the patch panel is probably the weakest link in my experience with slider patches and it would be less expensive to replace with dinner per circuit than find someone to build a new patch panel, while preserving outdated technology adding labor and kerping points of failure.
RickR
Well-Known Member
Replacing the dimmers or the patch panel would likely mean bringing the wiring up to code. If they have shared neutrals or even just undersized wire the whole thing gets expensive. If they go with dim/cir then they could use smaller dimmers. The goal would be dimmer per fixture!
@Andrew738 has anything happened?
@Andrew738 has anything happened?
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Depending on the condition of the wiring, of which I know nothing, it maybe be should be brought up to code anyways, doing anything else or not. Usually, having replaced several patch panel systems with a dimmer per circuit, it's not been an issue to intercept the branch circuits just before or above the patch panel and connect to dimmer rack. Usual is to replace patch panel face with a blank metal panel and use the insides as a big junction box.
tjrobb
Well-Known Member
Bill, this is what we did here when we upgraded from DPC 1982 CD80's dimmers. We have a 48x48x12, maybe bigger, junction box where the old rack was*, feeding into the new Sensor racks upstairs. I know the neutrals were shared in the CD80, I don't know how they resolved this.
In your case, the junctions would be at the patch bay to allow conversion to DPC.
*the junction box has a few rows of DIN rail terminals that keep everything neat, no wire nuts to be seen.
Tl;DR - it is possible, and ideal, to keep the wiring you have and make it better. It just takes some work.
gordonmcleod
Active Member
Similar threads
