Control/Dimming Element, Networking, and Gateways

[CraigV]

Hey, so I am not sure if this has been asked before and it's a really specific question that would be difficult to find via search.

The high school where I am TD just got a beautiful new 6 million dollar theater with a brand new ETC Element 60 with ETCNet3 run around to many different places in the theater and two nodes. The theater manager insists on keeping one down on the floor for running the lights we place on the floor which leaves one node for all of the (four) cats. I'm working on convincing him to let us just drop a DMX line to the floor instead, but he doesn't seem to want to run the theater that way for some reason.

Is there a relatively cheap alternative to buying the nodes (currently priced at $1000)? Would it be possible to set up a split network (so that one universe was sending/receiving DMX/RDM and the other was sending/receiving Art-Net or some other datatype), or is it an all-or-nothing deal?

Given the number of students in the cats, we're trying to keep the amount of cabling in the catwalks to a minimum, for safety concerns. Does anyone else have ideas as to what we could do to overcome such a small number of nodes? (The school district doesn't even want equipment from the old theater to come into the new theater, let alone buy new old equipment to put in there, so ebay and craigslist aren't really options.)

 

[Amiers]

Is wifi dmx an option it will solve the dmx line that needs to be dropped?

 

[Scarrgo]

If you are looking for nodes that are less expensive, look into DMX King. I have had good luck with them...

 

[lightman02]

ETC Net3 One-Port DMX/RDM & I/O Gateways, it would cost about $400 and will give you what you looking for with your existing setup.

 

[theatricalmatt]

Add an optosplitter up in the catwalks. That at least gives you the opportunity to run a leg to each separate catwalk.

 

[z2oo]

+1 to the optosplitter

What I'd like to know is why there aren't any installed DMX outputs anywhere in the very expensive theatre... Can any of our consultant friends hazard a guess as to why this might be? Lack of oversight/budget, or might there be another reason? I'm working in a venue in which we use nodes, but there are numerous installed ports around as well, so this strikes me as odd.

 

[robartsd]

+1 to the optosplitter

What I'd like to know is why there aren't any installed DMX outputs anywhere in the very expensive theatre... Can any of our consultant friends hazard a guess as to why this might be? Lack of oversight/budget, or might there be another reason? I'm working in a venue in which we use nodes, but there are numerous installed ports around as well, so this strikes me as odd.

Sounds like lack of consultant on project.

 

[sk8rsdad]

If they've run ethernet drops everywhere then maybe the intent is to drop a node anywhere they are needed. There are some advantages to using ethernet distribution, especially for future-proofing a facility.

 

[SteveB]

Before I spent money on an opto, I'd spend it on a 4 port node.

Yes it's expensive, but worth it long term as compared to the opto, for the flexibility of assining/moving universes, input capabilities, etc...

A decent quality opto might run you $400 a $600 where as a node will be $1300 or so, but money well spent.

 

[z2oo]

If they've run ethernet drops everywhere then maybe the intent is to drop a node anywhere they are needed. There are some advantages to using ethernet distribution, especially for future-proofing a facility.

That's totally valid - and what we have at my venue, but in that case where everything would get patched, why would they only have been supplied with two nodes? It still doesn't add up, unless someone wasn't thinking ahead or felt like skimping?

Before I spent money on an opto, I'd spend it on a 4 port node.

That's a great suggestion, and could then be used as an 'optosplitter' (all ports outputting the same universe) if so desired -- definitely the best of both worlds.

 

[robartsd]

If they've run ethernet drops everywhere then maybe the intent is to drop a node anywhere they are needed. There are some advantages to using ethernet distribution, especially for future-proofing a facility.

Yes, it'd be fine to distribute control only via ethernet if there were enough nodes provided. Any worthwhile consultant would have anticipated the issues with the system that was provided. They likely would have recommended either more nodes or distributing DMX in a way that could latter be ugraded to net+nodes without pulling new wire depending on project specifics.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

We distribute ethernet only (and switched power only) in almost all new build projects, and hopefully include sufficient quantity of nodes (14 in a recent high school). I've been shifting from portable to fixed nodes as it seems less to go wrong for user.

If we include DMX hard wiring, it's usually jut long lines from in house and booth to stage for touring companies - but finding most of them will use the ethernet. There are exceptions (eg: recent very low budget black box conversion - we sucked it up and put in two X eight DMX distribution.)

I will say that all the ethernet, more sophisticated architectural controls (ala Paradigm), and all the portable LED and moving fixtures add considerably to punch list work. Use to be you could test some DMX and 192 to 384 dimmed and non-dimmed circuits in a day. Now more like three if things don't go too poorly.

 

[SteveB]

Yes, it'd be fine to distribute control only via ethernet if there were enough nodes provided. Any worthwhile consultant would have anticipated the issues with the system that was provided. They likely would have recommended either more nodes or distributing DMX in a way that could latter be ugraded to net+nodes without pulling new wire depending on project specifics.

And do you have any way to know that they didn't do exactly that, then get the budget yanked from under them ?.

One thing about this process is it's better to spend the money on infrastructure that is hard for the end user to get installed later (items involving labor, such as the Cat5 backbone), and too cut items that the user will find easier to purchase after the fact, such as nodes. Sounds like your situation.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

And do you have any way to know that they didn't do exactly that, then get the budget yanked from under them ?.

One thing about this process is it's better to spend the money on infrastructure that is hard for the end user to get installed later (items involving labor, such as the Cat5 backbone), and too cut items that the user will find easier to purchase after the fact, such as nodes. Sounds like your situation.

To some degree but I find for institutional users - like public schools - it's now or never in terms of capital expense. I've see too many "holes in the wall" for future gear to be added over time that were still holes 25 or 50 years later when we're tearing down the building to build new -because it never really worked as well as promised. I certainly don't like to calcify a venue so it can't be added to, but I hate to spend money on infra-structure that will never be used and adds no value or function but did cost.

The worship facility market - all different. They have cash flow and can and do allocate some for capital expenses - especially if it improves their "product" which will improve their cash flow. Does not happen in a public school or government institution. Just experienced that on a federal project where the people at the institution wanted LED house lights because they can't get maintenance money and wanted the catwalks to reach every LED down light - which is usually a savings over quartz - because they'd never get the money for a lift or service to repair the failed power supply of data connection that will occur - even if once in three to five years.

Robartsd says the consequence was perhaps the result of not anticipating the result, and I agree, but anticipating and trying to protect against late - as in post design and bid - cuts by Owners or architects - is never easy. We had a project that was over budget and they were looking for some sayings. We'd planned one catwalk that was for servicing house lighting only to be an alternate and they saved $10,000 by not installing the contract - but the result was a designed solution. Without asking, they later deleted another catwalk, anticipating $10,000 savings, but it was unplanned. They ended up with no means to service fore stage down lights, a plug strip turned over (not installed), an 16 or so dimmer circuits. Then because the plug strip wasn't there and the catwalk rail for mounting the side lights wasn't there and the clouds that were to hang from the catwalk framing couldn't, the GC confided that the $10,000 savings they offered the Owner cost the GC $20,000 - the $10K they gave back plus $10K in extras to subs for solving the problems created by the absence of a catwalk. I try hard to anticipate what other people will do - knowing they are no experts and thus come to illogical conclusions - but can't always foresee every eventuality.

 

[MNicolai]

What I'd like to know is why there aren't any installed DMX outputs anywhere in the very expensive theatre... Can any of our consultant friends hazard a guess as to why this might be? Lack of oversight/budget, or might there be another reason? I'm working in a venue in which we use nodes, but there are numerous installed ports around as well, so this strikes me as odd.

Not to be cynical, but $6,000,000 doesn't go very far in new construction for theater spaces of any size. Most of that money goes toward pouring the slab, erecting the walls, putting a roof on top, and all of the MEP work. Conduit and wire are much cheaper in new construction than they'll ever be post-construction for a variety of reasons. It's not unusual to see pathways installed to accommodate future equipment, but it's also equally common to see that the owner, architect, and/or other stakeholders were explicit in what they wanted the room to be or not to be capable of and that those directions deterred the consultant from specifying additional equipment or infrastructure.

The high school I graduated from was constructed as just a high school theater. Then it became a roadhouse that happened to be attached to the school. It was never intended to be booked 300+ days of the year, nor was it equipped with the lighting/video/audio/storage/etc to accommodate the fast-paced turnaround times and shows being loaded-in on top of shows that hadn't yet loaded out. As an engineer at the A/V consulting firm for the project back when I was in high school, I've had the opportunity to work with that exact project team (A/V consultant, theater consultant, architect) on a number of other projects and the topic of this venue has come up. Nobody thought it would be this successful as a roadhouse -- in fact, nobody ever imagined it would be used as a roadhouse nor did they design it to be one. The owner hadn't indicated until it was already open that they wanted it function that way. The design team was ecstatic that it has been so successful but even in hindsight it's hard to imagine it would've changed much. You can only spend $12M so many ways, and the extra infrastructure/equipment/systems that we would've wanted could never have been afforded. If anything, we lucked out that it was equipped just well enough to get dug in as rental venue to make it a self-sustainable facility operating in the black with a viable business case for proposing $1M of upgrades in the next 5-10 years.

Building a facility such as a theater is a moving target of expectations and demands that's entirely budget-driven. It's always a fun academic exercise to look back in hindsight and wish about the things that could've been done differently, but you can only stretch a dollar so far.

 

[CraigV]

We went with the optosplitter and lots of DMX option for a number of reasons. Given that it's essentially a four cat grid at the high school level, we figured that running the physical DMX lines would be a better starting point than running ethernet for everything. We also found an optosplitter that had both 5 and 3 pin ports that was on sale for a rather good price. We also purchased some 3-pin Chauvet LED (75ST) followspots that have been a really nice improvement over the 35-year old Altman we had been using for the past 35 years. The optosplitter just solved more problems at a lower price than any of the other options. I also know that I will be pushing for some movers in the future—even if it's just a couple of DJ ones—so that students can learn how to work with those. We do have a large number (31 plus followspots) of LED lights already, though, but no movers.

There was a consultant, but contractor doesn't really seem like he was the "team player" sort. And, to be honest, a lot of the contractors didn't seem to talk to each other.

 

[robartsd]

We also purchased some 3-pin Chauvet LED (75ST) followspots that have been a really nice improvement over the 35-year old Altman we had been using for the past 35 years. ... We do have a large number (31 plus followspots) of LED lights already, though, but no movers.

I was thrown off my the name "followspot" as it sounds like you're using these as static profile units rather than followspots controlled live by an operator.

 

[CraigV]

We are using them as human-operated spots, but I like the concept of giving the LD as much control as possible over every light, including house and followspots. The 75STs are dimmable but hard to control the speed of the dim with just the back keypad. Once we fully integrate them through the DMX, fade times will be far easier to control.

I wanted to use converted Source 4s, but the theater manager is fairly gung-ho about LED and, of course, he is in charge of the district funds for this new theater.

 

[robartsd]

Sorry, I was confused by the way you phrased your explaination of you large number of LEDs. Do you know what model your old Altman followspots were?

 

[CraigV]

Well, large compared to most theaters in the area. The only other theaters in the area that have LED have only a small number of LED strip lights, usually by Chauvet or Blizzard.

The spot we had been using was the 902 Altspot. We have one, and a couple of years ago, the fresnel-type lens started to develop a crack that's now running the diameter of it.

I'm considering trying to find a replacement lens that will fit, but now that we have the two brighter, quieter, cooler, lighter LED ones, I think we'll just use those. No doubt we'll keep the old spot around, just in case some director wants a third follow, or maybe we'll put it in our little theater when we remodel that sometime in the possibly near future.