Can someone explain "groups" to me, please?

[LightingManEvan]

Hi everyeone,

I have a quick question concerning "groups" in lighting...

I was observing a tech rehearsal, sittting behind the Tech Table and got to listen in on LD and what he was doing with the board op....alot of his cues would use, for example "Group 128 at full" or "Group 14 at 50"

My question is....is there a certain rhyme or reason that the groups have their numbers? I just dont think that this show had up to 128 groups...so I was curious why it would be group 128, if there are only, say 25 groups. Is it just up to the LD, or something else that I am missing?

Thank you! (Sorry for this seemingly simple/stupid question)

 

[Footer]

Every LD is different... here is how I use groups...

Say I divide the stage into 9 areas, 3 across and 2 back. I have 8 Systems. System 1 is front light, system 2 is backlight... etc. So, channel 1 turns on front light DSL. Channel 11 turns on backlight DSL. I will then make a group 1, group 11, group 21, group 31.... What that group is ALL the lights that are in that system. So, if I ask for group 11 @ 60, I am asking for channels 11-16 @ 60. Groups simply save keystrokes and make communication and programming a bit easier. To make a group, refer to your consoles manual.

 

[MNicolai]

The group number is arbitrary, just as channel numbering is. For example, I leave my facility's groups, like house lights, stage work lights, FOH work lights, and aisle lighting in the early 900's. So Group 900 is 900, stage works are 901, FOH works are 902, and aisle lighting is 903.

I've assigned them that way for no other reason than it's easy to remember and keeps from having to look at paperwork each time I want to turn those lights on.

 

[SteveB]

Sometimes the console channel layout has some logic.

Front light as channels 1-9
Sides Warms as 11-18 (1 wing right, 2 wing right, 3 wing right, 4 wing right, 1 wing left, etc...)
Side Cools as 21 - 28
Then Backs Amber, then Backs Magenta, then Bax Blue,
etcetera as per designers preference

The skipping of channels 10 and 19 & 20 etc.. is done sometimes as the channels reads on the desk console monitor that way, usually in horizontal rows of 25, though the ETC Eos and Ion allows flexibility in how may channels across a horizontal row. The first row is easy to remember as FOH, next row down as Side Warms, etc..

Now you may want to "Group" all the Side Warm channels as "Group 11" from the logic of the starting channel number of the first Side Warm channel (11).

The Group 11 callup saves having to call "Channels 11 thru 18 at full", with "Group 11 full" saving both LD time as well as console button pushing. Another grouping can be channels 11-14 as a group for all the stage right warms together.

Another use is for the LD to ask "Group 11 At", with no further console action (such as Full), which serves to highlight all the Side Warms in red (Expression/Express series) and easily tells the LD what level the side warms are at (but don't forget Release !). Eos/Ion does the same, but instead of highlighting the channels in Red it merely highlights the channel tiles in gold to show those channels to stand out for easy viewing.

Note that on many consoles, a Group sometimes gets recorded with channels at a defined level ("Channels 11 thru 14 @ Full, record Group 11"). Calling up Group 11 to Full brings those channels to Full. If you record channels 11 thru 14 in the Group at 50% and then ask for Group 11 to Full, those channels will only come up to 50%.

The Eos and Ion (and Element I believe) dispensed with values/levels in groups, thus the group is only a collection of channel numbers.

And so on. Each LD has their own method and some don't bother.

 

[jstandfast]

Many folks I know swear by a system where regardless of position or purpose, each group
is identified by the number of the numerically first channel in that group. Many of these
people claim the inventor of this system to be Ken Billington.

 

[derekleffew]

...The Eos and Ion (and Element I believe) dispensed with values/levels in groups, thus the group is only a collection of channel numbers. ...

Well, I find that mildly unfortunate. Say for example Group 1 is channels (1>5) 5x 19°s lighting the DS areas from the FOH cove AND (6>10), 5x 36°s on the US areas from 1E. In order to make an even wash, Grp 1 is recorded as (1>5) @80%, (6>10)@100%. Calling "Grp 1 @ 50*" brings (1>5)@40% and (6>10)@50%; the level of each is halved, so the intensity stays proportionate.
An easy workaround would be to build cues rather than groups and call cue 901 @ 50%. Most consoles allow the channels and levels within a cue to be used as groups. Most consoles also allow the contents of a submaster to be used as a group and vice-versa, albeit without a handle.

Another benefit to groups on some consoles is stored selction order, especially useful when dealing with MLs. Group 1 may be Vari-lites 1>10. Grp 2 may be the same fixtures, but selected as 10>1. Grp 2 will be backwards from Grp 1 when an effect is applied. Grp 3 could be the fixtures selected as 1, 10, 2, 9, 3, 8, 4, 7, 5, 6, creating a diminishing "bounce" type effect. Naturally Grp 4 would be the opposite: 5, 6, 4, 7, 3, 8, 2, 9, 1, 10, creating an expanding bounce.

 

[sk8rsdad]

Well, I find that mildly unfortunate. Say for example Group 1 is channels (1>5) 5x 19°s lighting the DS areas from the FOH cove AND (6>10), 5x 36°s on the US areas from 1E. In order to make an even wash, Grp 1 is recorded as (1>5) @80%, (6>10)@100%. Calling "Grp 1 @ 50*" brings (1>5)@40% and (6>10)@50%; the level of each is halved, so the intensity stays proportionate.

Eos and Ion have palettes and presets to provide proportional levels. The scheme you have described is done using intensity palettes, or recording it to a sub, or saving an entire look as a preset, or recalling from an existing cue, or....For example, "Group Sub 1 at /50 [Enter]" or "{Recall from} {Intensity Palette} 1 at /50" behave as you have described. [Group] is more like a verb on Eos/Ion.

 

[SteveB]

Thanks sk8rsdad, I wasn't sure how far to get into the Eos/Ion programming structure in terms of the OP's original question and decided to keep it simple

To Derek, my understanding of ETC's concept of Groups (for Eos/Ion) is it allows the collection of channels when you don't want values (such as focus. color, beam) and is very useful for ML's as example. I have my ML channels set as groups that are selected on the Direct Select touch screen(s). Thus I can have assorted groups, All Fix, Fix 1, then 2, then 3, etc... as well as Fix 1&5, 2&3, etc... If I want them full I press Full Enter, While they are still selected I set them to DC as a focus pallete, or to a color pallete as R26, and a beam pallete as Small-Hard, etc... If I want all of this together I record a Preset. Intensity Palletes function mostly the way Express/ion Groups did, except of course you have touch screen control for recall. And of course you can add the layer of Presets. Very fast and I'm told by one of my operators it's almost as easy programming ML's on the Ion as a Hog III.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Groups are awesome when working with, as Derek said, moving lights, or, as I often use them, for remembering mixes with our Seachangers.

 

[LightingManEvan]

Thank you all so, so much for the very fast and very insightful replies! I really appreciate how helpful everyone is, even if my question seems stupid and basic.

I hope to put more groups to use with my upcoming school show.

Thanks again!

 

[meatpopsicle]

Many folks I know swear by a system where regardless of position or purpose, each group
is identified by the number of the numerically first channel in that group. Many of these
people claim the inventor of this system to be Ken Billington.

This is also frequently used in movies and television where we have an extrodinary number of channels in fixtures like space lights. A spacelight is a ring of 6 1kw FCMs with a frame of silk around it. Frequently run on Socapex, we could have 20 or 30 fixtures in any setup. By naming each group by the first channel in the fixture we can always tell what the other channels are that are in that fixture at a glance.

Interesting that it might have originated from KB.