Fire hose connections and hoses on stage

[BillConnerFASTC]

It's my every several years appeal for input and comments on requiring fire hoses on stages. It's occasioned by the Assembly Occupancy Committee for the Life Safety Code forming a task group on Stages and Fire Protection Systems. The scope was originally focused around the relative temperatures - fusible link ratings or heat detectors or other - for the automatic operation of the of the fire sprinklers, vents, and fire safety curtain (or deluge).
However hose cabinet requirements are once again an issue. In the past, the SML community and like minded theatre people have expressed strong support for retaining hose cabinets with hoses on stages. While once more commonly required in other occupancies, stages are about the only place left where they are still required by code. While some may disagree, these are and have always been for occupant use, not fire service use. Just as most people here would not rely upon a never used or maintained sound system, the fire service is equally unlikely to rely on a hose in a cabinet on stage.

Over my 25 years of being actively involved in the development of the national model building and fire codes, I have tended to speak in favor of keeping the requirement, and the representatives of the fire service have generally supported deleting the requirement. Simply, I believe technicians want them and would use them; the fire service thinks occupants should egress and leave fire fighting to the fire service.

So some questions came up from the task group.
1. If you work on a stage or stages with these fire hoses, have you had training in using them?
2. Have you ever used or seen these used in a fire, or heard a reliable report of their use?
3. Do you favor retaining the requirement?

Kind of a bonus question but increasingly I hear reports of local authorities over riding the requirement and not allowing the installation of these or requiring at least the elimination or removal of the actual hose, and only keeping the connection. Have you been made aware of this on the stages where you work?

Thanks in advance for your constructive responses.
--
Bill Conner Fellow of the ASTC

 

[SteveB]

1) No
2) No
3) Don't have them on our stage.

This is a City of NY venue that has seen numerous fire system and life safety upgrades of various types over the years and none of these has seen hoses installed in our backstage area. I "think" there might be hoses in the audience chamber, but not sure and possibly they've become just part of the background. I do know there were hoses in the audience chamber of our adjacent smaller proscenium theater (who's audience chamber has since been torn down) as I recovered the hose that was in an exit alcove. This smaller theater was built at the same time as our larger road house and did have a single hose unit on a down right wall backstage. But none in the larger road house.

 

[DuckJordan]

1. Nope
2. Nope
3. Nope

We are a Road house, Not once have these been used. I don't think they actually get inspected either. Our fire marshal doesn't even check them. If it requires more than a fire extinguisher its a no go on our insurance and our policies. First and for most is evacuation. we have one on each side of the stage and again never used them. To be honest I think they are more of a liability that an help. The chances for a trained person, to get to the hose. Turn it on and use it appropriately in the case of a fire is almost nill generally due to the fact that priority is evacuation.

To be honest it would take two people to effectively use ours, hose is a 4" with a valve. Again if it takes more than a fire extinguisher to contain then there is no reason you should stick around.

 

[techieman33]

1- no
2- no
3- no

We don't actually have any on the stage. We have 12 in the public spaces, one near each corner of the building on each floor. The only thing the cabinets gets used for is a place to hold a fire extinguisher. It doesn't help that the lines are dry, the only time they would get used is if the fire department plugged into the standpipes on the exterior of the building. And I highly doubt that they would trust the 25 year old hoses.

 

[Footer]

I have them on each side of stage. Hoses are still there. They have not been inspected in a year. Hoses get replaced every so often. There is an extinguisher in each cabinet as well.

1. No, only trained on extinguishers.
2. No
3. Get rid of them. They take up too much wall space and I'm not going to fight a fire at that level.

In the event of a fire, I'm clearing the act and bringing in the fire wall. Beyond that, I don't care what happens. If the fire is small I'll grab an extinguisher and give it a run. Odds are though I'm still going to drop the wall and clear the act. My theatre is 6 stories up... I'm hitting the stairs as soon as possible.

 

[TheaterEd]

1.No
2.No
3. No

We have them in my current space but did not have them in the last two auditoriums that I ran.

We received no training on them, so I might give it a shot if the fire was out of range of an extinguisher. I am on a ground floor and am a pretty fit individual, but once smoke even started to become an issue, I'm out.

I would much rather have the wall space.

Last school district I worked for had a brand new venue that opened in 2010 and a 20-30 year old space. Neither had hoses. Current location opened in 2012 and has hoses... I'd rather not have them.

 

[MNicolai]

1) Sort of. At owner-turnover, we were paraded past them and explained briefly about them. No hands-on, and I seem to recall being told, "Most fire marshals will tell you if you have a fire on stage large enough that you need the hose, drop the fire curtain and leave."
2) No.
3) In most cases, no.

OSHA just held Stand Down for Safety which lasted May 4-15. That means we just had Safety Week at a few of our different job sites. In our fire extinguisher training sessions on various sites, there was always a question to the effect of:

"What do you use a fire extinguisher for?"
A) Limiting property damage.
B) Making an egress route.
C) Buying time before firefighters arrive.
D) All of the above.

The answer is always emphasized as "B" and only "B". If it's a small enough fire, sure, go ahead and grab the extinguisher, but your number one priority in using a fire extinguisher is making a route of egress for yourself. Insurance will cover any property damage. Things and stuff can be replaced, and a single fire extinguisher is woefully inadequate at putting anything larger than a small fire out. In this case a hose can do more, but my estimation is that by the time someone thinks to get the hose out, the fire's even too big for those hoses to be sufficiently useful.

In special circumstances I think I'd also accept "C", but only where buying time serves to limit the loss of life before the firefighters can get the fire under control. This is more critical in rooms that aren't sprinklered or that don't have fire curtains. Modern theaters with sprinklers and fire curtains shouldn't need anyone to try and be a hero. Drop the curtain to give the audience time to egress and get yourself out.

I think the same applies to fire hoses. Every firefighter I've spoken to says they'll always bring in their own hoses. Most of them wouldn't even think to look for hoses on-stage. Now if you're somewhere where firefighters are a long ways away or there's a high probability they won't be able to get their fire trucks close enough to the building, then I could see a good case for keeping hoses, or at least places inside to connect hoses that are fed by the building's water system.

Another issue at play, especially in counterweight houses, is that ropes are very flammable. When I guided a tour of firefighters through a local theater, they asked if there was anything to lock the rigging in place if a fire broke out near the ropes and started causing the ropes to catch fire. I told them no, and they quickly concluded that in a fire, people should get off of the stage as quickly as possible before the sky starts falling. Nobody should try and be a hero and go running for the hose that's located on the upstage wall under a number of counterweight battens that could drop at any moment (and in the case of one nearby theater, happens to be located well behind their cyc so no one can find it in an emergency).

 

[StradivariusBone]

1. No, but the cabinets exist and the hose were removed before I started working there, presumably by our safety to life guys. They now contain fire extinguishers. I've not had any formal training on any fire safety equipment from my employer, though I have personal experience.
2. No.
3. I think it'd be interesting to see the data on actual use in a fire, but with a dad who worked several years as a volunteer firefighter I can relate that the general public tends to underestimate the difficulty in extinguishing an active and growing fire by a wide margin. The hero complex could kick in and while you're trying to save the day your egress could be comprised and in theory you'll not be doing anything useful to help your audience egress more efficiently anyway as long as the fire curtain deploys. My rule with my students is the alarm goes off turn on houselights, if it's feasible leave a mic unmuted on stage and you get out and stay out. No sense in getting injured or killed to save a building.

An interesting sidenote though- I have come within seconds of actually using one of these hoses before. In my freshmen year of college our dorm had two of these per floor on either side of the elevators. So we get the idea of having a water fight and pulled the hoses out of the cabinets, were facing each other in front of the elevators about to open the valves when our head custodian just happened to pop out of an elevator at the right moment and started screaming expletives at us. We, being the college idiots we were, had no idea that this would also set off the alarm not to mention the insane amount of water that would have been dumped throughout the hall.

 

[tjrobb]

We had them, were removed in the 2010 renovation.
I would much rather have the wing space. Between putting yourself in danger, rigging failures, and copious amounts of electricity onstage I can't justify an occupant using the hose.
On the other hand, I think having a 2-1/2" connection either side is useful... on the other side of the wall. When an attack is made the fire crew wants a charged line in hand. Putting a connection on stage means they could roast marshmallows as they're connecting. (Same concept as why hose connections are in stair towers).

 

[josh88]

No, no and no.

I've got one on each side of my stage. Like theatreEd if it came to something larger than an extinguisher I might give it a shot, but only my stage right hose because it's 2 steps from an exterior door that I could be out in the same time it would take to drop it.

I don't have a ton of wing space and could use the extra little bit of room. Our hoses are at least 10 years old, and I think the fire marshal only ever looks at our extinguishers.

 

[Robert]

1. Yes, both hose and extinguisher. Trained on the extinguisher on an open vat of burning oil. It's not easy!
2. Used extinguishers twice in two different non-theatrical situations, know of one alleged use of an extinguisher in a theater catwalk where a light dropped focus and started the soffet smoldering.
3. Since I know how to use it I support their continued presence, but we all know what happens to life safety gear in the hands of an untrained person.

My general feeling on fire hoses is the same that I have for everything else in theater, leave tasks that require a trained professional to a trained professional.
I fear that those who said they would try to use a fire extinguisher on an active fire but not a hose are actually kidding themselves if they think it is inherently safer to put out a fire with an extinguisher than a hose (see #1). It might be best for all untrained to just leave the building.
I now have an obligation to make sure my area is evacuated and then report that to security, so it may not be feasible to try and contain the fire as I am required to be elsewhere.

 

[DuckJordan]

1. Yes, both hose and extinguisher. Trained on the extinguisher on an open vat of burning oil. It's not easy!
2. Used extinguishers twice in two different non-theatrical situations, know of one alleged use of an extinguisher in a theater catwalk where a light dropped focus and started the soffet smoldering.
3. Since I know how to use it I support their continued presence, but we all know what happens to life safety gear in the hands of an untrained person.

My general feeling on fire hoses is the same that I have for everything else in theater, leave tasks that require a trained professional to a trained professional.
I fear that those who said they would try to use a fire extinguisher on an active fire but not a hose are actually kidding themselves if they think it is inherently safer to put out a fire with an extinguisher than a hose (see #1). It might be best for all untrained to just leave the building.
I now have an obligation to make sure my area is evacuated and then report that to security, so it may not be feasible to try and contain the fire as I am required to be elsewhere.

I've been trained on an extinguisher, I have not been trained on the fire hose. If its larger than what an extinguisher can handle then its straight evac.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

 

[robartsd]

If it requires more than a fire extinguisher its a no go on our insurance and our policies.

Between putting yourself in danger, rigging failures, and copious amounts of electricity onstage I can't justify an occupant using the hose.

I think that money and space would be better served with more extinguishers instead of hoses. Extingishers are easier to train with and are capable of fighting fires that might be appropriate for occupants to engage in. Haveing extinguishers in more locations would mean that there is greater chance of one being close enough at hand to use before the fire becomes big enough to require the fire service to control it. The only time I could see a hose being effectively used is if trained firefighters are on stage for fire watch.

My rule with my students is the alarm goes off turn on houselights, if it's feasible leave a mic unmuted on stage and you get out and stay out. No sense in getting injured or killed to save a building.

While turning on houselights is obvious, I had never thought about the benefit of an open mic (of course, I've never been a sound guy). Reviewing policy and proceedure, and running drills with run crew has tremendous potential for increasing safety should an emergency come up during a show.

 

[StradivariusBone]

While turning on houselights is obvious, I had never thought about the benefit of an open mic (of course, I've never been a sound guy). Reviewing policy and proceedure, and running drills with run crew has tremendous potential for increasing safety should an emergency come up during a show.

Our system does not have a recording that plays with the siren (which is code now, I think?) so when we practice our emergency drills we usually try and leave whatever mic is on stage open so that I or other staff could direct audience members to the exits. In reality the alarm is so stinking loud I doubt it would be audible, but I've seen how people react to an alarm in a public place. Unless there's smoke or fire they'll usually sit and wait for someone to tell them it's not a real alarm.

 

[sk8rsdad]

1. N/A
2. No
3. No

Even if we had a fire hose, I wouldn't want any of our staff (volunteers) mixing water with electricity or rigged soft goods. Both can be very dangerous situations.

We train that a fire extinguisher is a life safety device. It's primary purpose is to enable people to egress the building in the event of a fire. A secondary use is to put out small fires if doing so doesn't put a person in more danger.

 

[venuetech]

no
no
no

I did have a arson related fire in a balcony lobby. they wadded up unused programs and started a fire in a wood display case. two sprinkler heads were tripped and suppressed the flames till firefighters responded.

 

[Footer]

Our system does not have a recording that plays with the siren (which is code now, I think?) so when we practice our emergency drills we usually try and leave whatever mic is on stage open so that I or other staff could direct audience members to the exits. In reality the alarm is so stinking loud I doubt it would be audible, but I've seen how people react to an alarm in a public place. Unless there's smoke or fire they'll usually sit and wait for someone to tell them it's not a real alarm.

We have a bull horn in both spaces for exactly this. Keep them onstage and test them monthly. If the alarm goes off my FOH guy mutes the PA at the processing, no matter if the show is on our desk or a road desk.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Occupant notification in theaters is required to be either pre-recorded voice announcements or live voice announcements, and visual (strobe) notification. You have all again reminded me that because it was built that way and approved by authorities, it doesn't mean it met the requirements of the code then or now.

Practically up to several hundred, it probably doesn't matter too much, but when you are near or over a thousand, it's much better if there is a live person who is directing egress or other crowd action (like to a basement in a tornado) than a horn.

 

[AlexDonkle]

Our system does not have a recording that plays with the siren (which is code now, I think?) so when we practice our emergency drills we usually try and leave whatever mic is on stage open so that I or other staff could direct audience members to the exits. In reality the alarm is so stinking loud I doubt it would be audible, but I've seen how people react to an alarm in a public place. Unless there's smoke or fire they'll usually sit and wait for someone to tell them it's not a real alarm.

There's some disagreements between what is code and what is practical for egress in large venues. Many AV systems will have a contact-closure from the fire alarm system so they'll automatically mute during a fire. This is done to ensure that the alarm is audible, and louder than the ambient noise (e.g. loud music from the PA) by at least 15 dB (code required). In a large venue this can be dangerous as announcements from a person are helpful to reduce the chance of panic.

In large stadiums and arenas, the standard is for the PA announcer to make all emergency announcements themselves, although the fire marshall / police have their own booth nearby and have a locked override box that gives them a mic to override the PA announcer or can play a pre-recorded announcement as well.

The other fire alarm exception large venues commonly use is to have a staff member acknowledge a silent fire alarm triggered somewhere in the building, and to delay evacuating the building until the building staff / crew have confirmed the cause of the trigger. This was developed for Stadiums and approved by local fire marshalls, then made its way into code as well for any venue with sufficiently trained staff. While a fire is certainly dangerous, there are often false alarms, and evacuating people from any large venue can be very dangerous in itself.

On fire hose cabinets, I have not seen any in the venues I've been in. Only fire extinguishers.

 

[danTt]

Another issue at play, especially in counterweight houses, is that ropes are very flammable. When I guided a tour of firefighters through a local theater, they asked if there was anything to lock the rigging in place if a fire broke out near the ropes and started causing the ropes to catch fire. I told them no, and they quickly concluded that in a fire, people should get off of the stage as quickly as possible before the sky starts falling. Nobody should try and be a hero and go running for the hose that's located on the upstage wall under a number of counterweight battens that could drop at any moment (and in the case of one nearby theater, happens to be located well behind their cyc so no one can find it in an emergency).

I feel like this part is inaccurate. The system should be in weight to such a point where the ropes are no more than a means of moving heavy scenery. If you are relying on the rope lock to prevent an out of weight condition, you have a larger problem than a fire. That's not to say that over time fire wouldn't deform/destroy the wire rope that is actually suspending the scenery, but I think that would take longer than the ropes themselves burning. Not saying it is a good idea to be in the theater if a fire is happening, but the ropes disappearing shouldn't cause any sort of safety condition.