How does this sound?

[zuixro]

The other day at lunch, the TD and I were discussing our upcoming sound upgrade (it's been upcoming for about 4 years now, but we finally have the money for it.) He asked me what console I would pick if I could have any console. I told him I would think about it.

So I did some research and here's what I came up with:

Yamaha LS9 32 32-Input 64-Channel Digital Mixing Console | Full Compass

and since we want to go with a digital snake:

Yamaha 32X16 DIG STAGEBX KT 2-SB168ES, 1-MY16ES64, 1-MY16EX | Full Compass

This would give us 64 inputs, 32 outputs (with half of those at FOH).

It's an identical setup to the "Small / Medium Scale Live Sound System with LS9-32" from the SB168 brochure:
http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/downloads/brochures/interfaces/sb168es_brochure.pdf

Right now we have some Soundcraft 6ch board and we badly need to upgrade.
What we have works well for most of our shows, but occasionally we have a huge rental that needs a ton of channels, and they have to rent a board. We also do one musical per year with wireless mics, pit mics, etc.

Basically what I'm asking is, does this sound like a good system for what we do? I wanna make sure this sounds good before I pitch it to the TD. I've requested a quote from Full Compass, so I can give him a ballpark number (plus installation) when I present it. I'm not looking at speakers/amps, he just wants my opinion about the console. We have a local company that we will buy everything through, and have them install it.

I can't see us ever needing more than 32 channels on stage, and if we do, we can use the analog snake to feed the FOH inputs. The next step up, the M7CL-48, seems like it's way overkill for what we do.

So, What do you guys think?

 

[Footer]

The LS9 has become the defacto installation console in mid sized venues. The M7 is a very popular console for larger venues that can not afford a PM5D. The LS9 does not have all of the expansion slots that are possible on the M7 but is still a solid console. Get a demo of both the M7 and the LS9 and see which you like best. Interface wise they are pretty similar.

 

[zuixro]

The company that would be doing the install actually has an M7 that they use for monitors, so It wouldn't be hard to get a demo. I don't know if they have an LS9 though. (It's a combination production/install/rental company, I used to work there) I'll tell him that we should get a demo.

I went with the LS9 because it looks more like a traditional console, and the majority of people who will be using it have little to no experience with sound equipment. (the sound board op for most shows just volunteers for the job, then gets like 5 minutes of training. I'm not a fan of the system, but what are you gonna do) I thought that having a traditional layout like the LS9 would make it easier for untrained people to use, but still give us the power to mix a musical with 20+ wireless lavs and a handful of pit mics.

Right now we rent a console and all the mics we need from the above company. (Now that I think about it, we might be renting their M7 for musicals. I don't know, this is my first year here)

Also, is having a computer dedicated to the board very helpful? The last school I was at had a computer dedicated to their LS9. I think a computer is needed to setup the EtherSound system.

 

[SHARYNF]

I guess the question would be what is your total budget, and is this likely to be a one shot deal for years and years.

Both are good consoles, if you could swing it the M7 is probably a better system, and I would think that an alternative might be to delay the digital snake, keep the analog connection and move up to the M7 . It really is a trade off but both are quite good, Yamaha is going to be around for a long time

Sharyn

 

[zuixro]

I'm not sure what the exact budget is, but we have enough to do just about anything we want. (stimulus money and whatnot)

We want to do a digital snake because there are several bad channels on the analog snake (there are 80 something channels that got patched down to 12 in the original system) The patch panel was installed 20 years ago, and is giving us nothing but trouble. From the quote I got for the stageboxes, it looks like it will be cheaper to replace it with a digital snake, than to repair what we already have. The analog snake works well enough that it can do in a pinch (if we need more channels), but it takes a lot of futzing with it to get it to work.(silicon spray, jiggling, switching out patch cords)

I think I'm going to recommend the M7 with an alternative being the LS9. That would give us up to 48 inputs/24 outputs on stage, and 48 inputs/16 outputs (I think, its hard to tell from the brochure) at FOH. I would be the main one running it for events, and it wouldn't be hard to set it up for an untrained person to use for a show.

This will be a one-shot thing. We'll be getting the console, snake, amps, speakers, mics all at the same time. We _should_ get some monitor wedges and amps too, but I don't know if that will happen.

 

[SHARYNF]

The main issue with the existing snake is IF you really do want to use it then you need to get it fixed, or it will drive you crazy as you are seeing now. I personally have an issue with stuff that does not work properly and is still installed. IMO either fix it or get rid of it or at the worst possible time you will attempt to use part of it that "works" and it will fail. As the saying goes things fail at the least convenient point in time.

IF you are able to meet all the needs with the N7 then go for it, If you will still need to use an outside console then you need to be prepared to either use your exiting analog snake (which a lot of a level groups will NOT do) or provide a way that they can use their own. The only issue with the Yamaha digital snake is that it is limited to the Yamaha devices.

I a larger venue, I like the option of having at least a split for monitors or if you do recording an additional split for that. The Yamaha snake again restricts you to a certain extent to using their consoles all around

Sharyn

 

[zuixro]

I agree that the analog snake should be fixed. I don't think it will though. I'm going to open up one of the boxes on stage soon, and see if I can fix some of the bad channels. I'm not going anywhere near that patch panel though. I've looked at the back, and I can't trace anything out of it:
Here's a pic

Most rentals use our equipment in our booth, or use their own equipment on stage and just patch into our speakers. I didn't even think about an incoming group needing our snake, thanks. (that's why I came here ) We have a great way for them to run their own snake into the booth if they need to. I think any EtherSound compatible console can use that snake. At least that's the way I understand EtherSound to work.

We don't split off for monitors or recording because we don't do many concerts that would require that. We have one yearly event that does split for monitors, but they rent in the whole system.

Thanks for this, You're making me think of things that I wouldn't have thought about otherwise.

 

[DaveySimps]

We are running a LS9-32 with two of the SB168-ES's. We LOVE it. It works great for our needs. We do 10 theatre shows a year with lots of wireless, and the rest is road house / corporate type work in our venue. I have found the LS9 to be easy for new users to pick up. I just specked the same set up for a renovation I am helping with at another space. The low bid with a rack for the stage boxes, nice CAT5 cable, a work light, and a power conditioner came in at bout $17,500 with conduit and and CAT 5 run in the facility for the lines from the stage rack and FOH mix.

Some tips / suggestions for you. Make sure you run the board and stage boxes on some sort of power conditioner / UPS. Digital stuff does not like varying voltage or surges, and the UPS is nice to prevent rebooting issues in the event of a quick power outage. We use the Tripp Lite SM500RMNAFTA and like it. I also recommend running two data lines from the stage rack to the mix position. CAT5 is cheap in comparison to a traditional snake. Since it seems like money comes few and far between for you, the extra run is a good investment just in case. With the way technology is going, and extra CAT 5 run in your facility is never a bad investment IMO.

We also run a dedicated sound computer with the system. It is great to have studio manager on it to use in conjunction with the board. It also runs our SFX playback software. We went over board and also got a tablet PC and wireless router as well. Since on many shows me or the engineer serve as the only person on the sound crew, it is VERY useful to be able to ring out monitors with while you are in front of them on stage. Same with fill speakers while you are listening to them in the house. It saves a lot of time when you have a small staff.

~Dave

 

[SHARYNF]

You might find this interesting

ASHLY NE4400 SEAMLESSLY COMBINES ANALOG, ETHERSOUND, AND AES/EBU FOR ELEVATION CHURCH’S PORTABLE SITE | BriefingRoom on MixOnline

The Patch panel looks more intimidating that it probably is.

One trick to start testing is to make up a series of adaptors, one that goes say from Ipod to Male XLR on the input side, and another one Ipod to Female XLR and then make up a patch cord that goes from the Patch Panel Jack to headphones

This way you can get a start at checking the labeling of the inputs and outputs.

Most of the time the problem is either in the boxes OR more likely in the snake tales. OR just that the patch panel jacks are dirty or the patch cables are bad. Most of the time all this is wired up in such a way in the back of the patch panel that the connections are bundled together and don't have much strain in them. The Patch chords get a lot of use and wear and tear. and the Patch Panel if it is not used will also tend to corrode Some De Oxidizer and plugging and unplugging can be a big help


Remember Plan for the FUTURE, these systems once installed tend to get a one shot deal and then very little budget dollars from that point on.


So while you might not use a Monitor split today, in the future this might become more and more common. No one may record or broadcast today, but again in the future they might. Look at a 5+ year horizon

Sharyn

 

[TimmyP1955]

If I did not already have a good copper snake and wanted to go with a digital, I'd look at the Roland 400 and the baby Allen & Heath iLive.

 

[lakota651]

I agree with Sharyn, you need to think about the future.

Having spent time with both the LS9 and M7Cl, I prefer the M7 by far. One, because all the faders are at your disposal, and two, the interface much easier. Though its almost double the cost. If you do use up to 20 lavs in a show, the you're on the right track with wanting the LS9-32. I can tell you right now you will hate having to constantly flip back and forth through layers with the 16 fader version (though there are work-a-rounds, nothing makes up for having access at your finger tips when you want it, especially in the moment like dealing with feed back).

I don't now that you have to have a laptop dedicated for the board, but if you can get a wireless router and a tablet PC to use, it will be a very valuable tool. And that had been one of the strengths with the Yamaha desks. It is so incredibly awesome being able to be on stage and make adjustment to the monitors, walk the house and adjust the EQ, and just having the extra screen to monitor information.

As far a snake goes, I would suggest looking the RockNet 100 line from Riedel. Spec. wise they seam a notch above Yamaha's product in terms of quality, but their expandability seams far better. And they make cards to work with the Yamaha desks.

Last bit of advice: if you can, always demo. Always ask questions about a products capabilities, because you will have to live with it for a long time.

Happy Hunting.
~Lakota

RIEDEL.net > Audio Solutions > RockNet 100 > Audio Interfaces

 

[SHARYNF]

The thing that concerns me about Ethersound is Digigram. I have dealt with them over the years on some other products and I have found them to have interesting technology but be VERY SLOW to respond. Just personal opinion but this is one area where Yamaha has had very much on again off again attitude. M lan etc etc. So I'd go with a Yamaha console in a heartbeat, but the digital snake at this point I am not completely convinced


Just some thoughts
Sharyn

 

[museav]

If someone asked me what console I would want without any budgetary or any other limits, I would not be selecting a LS9 or even a M7CL. The fact that you are considering these consoles leads one to believe there are indeed budgetary or other constraints involved.

Whenever I see anyone talking about significantly increasing I/O capability or changing to a digital snake my first thought always goes to infrastructure. Do the existing conduit, boxes, power, etc. support the planned changes or will significant revisions be required to those elements? Might the existing infrastructure impact any decisions?

I'm a bit surprised by your comment about the LS9 being more like a traditional console and usable for shows with a large number of wireless mics as while it does support 64 mono channels with the configuration planned, that would require using fader banks and it does not have DCA capability (you can link channels but no true DCA). In comparison, the M7CL-48 has a fader for each input like an analog console but is limited to 48 mono and 4 stereo inputs regardless of the physical I/O. When addressing I/O with a digital snake as you have to consider both the physical I/O and the actual internal console busing, you can have more physical connections than mix channels or buses with the assignments handled via virtual patching. Since you probably don't want inexperienced operators trying to reconfigure the console patching, think about how you will work with users to configure the console for each use.

You mentioned that the upgrade will include speakers and amps, thus I'm assuming the work will also encompass system processing, assistive listening, etc. You may already be doing this but I have had the best success when starting with a comprehensive plan, looking at the system overall and before getting into the components. If budget or any other constraints limit what can be done then you might want to focus on the things that matter most to the audience experience or that might be more difficult to address later. People tend to go through multiple changes, including consoles, over the life of a speaker system, so it often makes sense to make the speaker system a priority especially as it can be the most critical element in what the patrons hear and will affect every use. It usually makes little sense to compromise the speaker system in order to get a digital snake or large I/O counts for a few events each year.

In the vein of a comprehensive approach, a couple of other potential considerations might include whether the console needs to support being used at more than one physical location, say booth or FOH on the floor, and as Sharyn noted, whether you need to support a separate monitor mix, recording mix, etc. as well as the FOH mix. I am going through this right now on a project where a digital snake makes great sense for supporting the multiple potential console locations desired but also makes it more difficult to support a temporary monitor console when required as it would need to be directly compatible with the digital snake system employed.

Another thought, you mentioned not wanting to touch the existing patch panels since you can't trace anything out of them. Since you are looking at a major upgrade, it might be a good to thoroughly document the existing system before you make any decisions on changes. Always best to know what you really have before deciding on what to do to improve on it.

 

[zuixro]

If someone asked me what console I would want without any budgetary or any other limits, I would not be selecting a LS9 or even a M7CL. The fact that you are considering these consoles leads one to believe there are indeed budgetary or other constraints involved.

What would you recomend then?

Whenever I see anyone talking about significantly increasing I/O capability or changing to a digital snake my first thought always goes to infrastructure. Do the existing conduit, boxes, power, etc. support the planned changes or will significant revisions be required to those elements? Might the existing infrastructure impact any decisions?

I don't know about conduit, but we'll be having speakers (and other things) installed at the same time, so I figure the Cat5 for the digital snake could be run at the same time. We have plenty of power in the booth. Like I said, I'm just recommending a console for this upgrade.

I'm a bit surprised by your comment about the LS9 being more like a traditional console and usable for shows with a large number of wireless mics as while it does support 64 mono channels with the configuration planned, that would require using fader banks and it does not have DCA capability (you can link channels but no true DCA). In comparison, the M7CL-48 has a fader for each input like an analog console but is limited to 48 mono and 4 stereo inputs regardless of the physical I/O. When addressing I/O with a digital snake as you have to consider both the physical I/O and the actual internal console busing, you can have more physical connections than mix channels or buses with the assignments handled via virtual patching. Since you probably don't want inexperienced operators trying to reconfigure the console patching, think about how you will work with users to configure the console for each use.

Can you explain DCA? I've looked around and I can't find what it is.

You mentioned that the upgrade will include speakers and amps, thus I'm assuming the work will also encompass system processing, assistive listening, etc. You may already be doing this but I have had the best success when starting with a comprehensive plan, looking at the system overall and before getting into the components. If budget or any other constraints limit what can be done then you might want to focus on the things that matter most to the audience experience or that might be more difficult to address later. People tend to go through multiple changes, including consoles, over the life of a speaker system, so it often makes sense to make the speaker system a priority especially as it can be the most critical element in what the patrons hear and will affect every use. It usually makes little sense to compromise the speaker system in order to get a digital snake or large I/O counts for a few events each year.

I'm just making a recommendation about what console I would get. We may go with it, we might not. The company doing the install will probably be designing the system as a whole. What percentage of the budget would say should go towards the console?

In the vein of a comprehensive approach, a couple of other potential considerations might include whether the console needs to support being used at more than one physical location, say booth or FOH on the floor, and as Sharyn noted, whether you need to support a separate monitor mix, recording mix, etc. as well as the FOH mix. I am going through this right now on a project where a digital snake makes great sense for supporting the multiple potential console locations desired but also makes it more difficult to support a temporary monitor console when required as it would need to be directly compatible with the digital snake system employed.

We will probably need to be able to move the console into the house for certain events, so a digital snake will be important. (sorry I didn't mention that before)

Another thought, you mentioned not wanting to touch the existing patch panels since you can't trace anything out of them. Since you are looking at a major upgrade, it might be a good to thoroughly document the existing system before you make any decisions on changes. Always best to know what you really have before deciding on what to do to improve on it.

I'm sure we have a schematic for the system somewhere. It's basically going to be a complete overhall. The company that did the original install didn't do a very good job. I'm not sure it ever worked the way it was designed to. That company is gone now.

 

[DaveySimps]

You can think of a DCA a digitally controlled submaster or VCA that is programmable. The LS9 does not have them, but the M7CL (and many larger format digital boards) do have them. It is just a way to control groups of channels while mixing instead of having to touch each individual fader. Some people swear by them when mixing, others don't.

~Dave

 

[SHARYNF]

If you are going thru a major rework really consider NOT putting the console in the booth. For some reason lots of schools had this done and it is terrible for mixing. Moving a 20 thousand dollar console around in a school environment is also something to avoid.

Sharyn

 

[zuixro]

If you are going thru a major rework really consider NOT putting the console in the booth. For some reason lots of schools had this done and it is terrible for mixing. Moving a 20 thousand dollar console around in a school environment is also something to avoid.

Sharyn

I would agree. However, there is no good place in the house to put it permanently. Even if there were, there powers that be wouldn't want it there. For most shows, it's fine having it in the booth. We just set levels before hand, then check every so often out the window or by walking out into the house. There is an ok location in the house for a temporary FOH position that they might use during musicals. I don't know, I haven't been here for a musical yet. IF we did move the console, it would be once or MAYBE twice per year.

I talked to the TD today, and it looks like we're gonna rent an M7 for our upcoming show (The Full Monty), so we'll see how that goes.

EDIT: If you look at the picture here, you will see that there's not a good place for FOH. I didn't embed it because the pic is freaking huge. (it's a publicity shot from our website)

 

[DaveySimps]

Is there a reason that 4 or six of the seats in the center of the back two rows cannot be removed to accomodate a mix position? This would be pretty common in a theatre with continental seating like yours. It would really be a far superior mix position than being stuck in a booth. Since you are an educational facility the loss of the few seats in those rows should not be as much of an issue as it would be in a commercial setting. The cost would be mainly labor and some materials from the hardware store to level the area out. The seats could also be kept as spare parts, or to reinstall should it not work out.

~Dave

 

[Morpheus]

What would you recomend then?

Anything DigiCo... possibly the D5T

(although, I only know of their reputation, no hands on experience with this company)

 

[museav]

What would you recommend then?

If there was no budgetary limitation I might be looking at something like a Digidesign Venue or an A&H iLive or a Midas XL6 or a DiGiCo SD7 or a Soundcraft Vi6. Maybe even a Midas XL8 or Cadac. But I'd first be assessing how any of them match up to the budget, the functional and physical requirements of the project and the rest of the system before going any further than the "I wonder how this might work" stage.

I don't know about conduit, but we'll be having speakers (and other things) installed at the same time, so I figure the Cat5 for the digital snake could be run at the same time. We have plenty of power in the booth. Like I said, I'm just recommending a console for this upgrade.

I'm just making a recommendation about what console I would get. We may go with it, we might not. The company doing the install will probably be designing the system as a whole. What percentage of the budget would say should go towards the console?

We will probably need to be able to move the console into the house for certain events, so a digital snake will be important. (sorry I didn't mention that before)

This is what I was talking about, you need to figure out what you need the console and system to do, including how the console integrates into the rest of the system and how much you have to spend on the console, in order to have sufficient basis to start discussing specific models. There are no fixed numbers for what percentage of the overall cost the console should represent, that can vary greatly based on the requirements and scope of each individual project.

I'm sure we have a schematic for the system somewhere. It's basically going to be a complete overhall. The company that did the original install didn't do a very good job. I'm not sure it ever worked the way it was designed to. That company is gone now.

How do you know what it was designed to do? How do you know they were the problem? And most importantly, what are you doing to keep it from happening again?


In my experience, picking equipment without a good solid basis for it and prior to a conceptual design is usually an ineffective approach. Copying what I just said in another thread, look at what you are trying to do and what is needed. Get a rough conceptual idea of the system using 'black boxes' for the products and focusing on how things have to interconnect and interrelate. Then start looking at what products provide the functionality that defines. In effect, select equipment to fit a design concept that reflects your goals rather than fitting the design concept and results around the equipment you selected.

As a system designer, I avoid situations where someone else defines the equipment but wants to hold me responsible for the system functionality and performance and I have walked away from such projects. If you feel that you require specific equipment based on rider compatibility, past experience, compatibility with existing systems or equipment, etc. then that's great to define. The same for identifying any personal preferences as suggestions or requests. Otherwise you might be better served to focus more on defining the functionality and the overall intent for the system and leave defining the specific equipment up to the system designer.