How nutritious are your lamps?

[MaxS]

The FTC just released this announcement. It seems to be a novel idea. If nothing else it will make lumen and color temperature values more ubiquitous forms of measurement. It remains to be seen whether these will appear on stage lamps, however.

Coming in 2011: New Labels for Light Bulb Packaging
Labels Will Emphasize Lumens, Not Watts, as a Measure of Bulb Brightness
Starting in mid-2011, the Federal Trade Commission announced today, consumers shopping for light bulbs will notice new labeling on packaging designed to help them choose among the different types of bulbs on the market – traditional incandescent bulbs, and newer high-efficiency compact fluorescent (CFL) and light-emitting diode (LED) bulbs. The new labels will enable consumers to save money by selecting the most efficient bulbs that best fit their lighting needs.

Source: Coming in 2011: New Labels for Light Bulb Packaging

 

[gafftapegreenia]

I like it, but it should also include CRI.

 

[ship]

I like it, but it should also include CRI.

I agree with this requiring CRI, if not all needed info such as color temperature, luminous output, lamp life and other versions of CRI out there in plotting the spectrum of the fake light lamp as needed.

Also.. The heck does luminous output really have to do with a reflector lamp unless as center beam candlepower measurement as also required for such lamps? I can stick a 23w compact flourescent lamp with a reflector and it has lots of luminous output - don’t mean it’s putting light on source, or useful full spectrum light on-source.

Also I might require dimmable verses non-dimmable to any such requirements.

Yea.. My (never going to buy one) LED mini-Mag Light is really bright... Can’t tell the difference between a brown/white and Orange/white wire... but it’s really bright...

Finally went flourescent in my garage, they are 5,0K 85CRI and supplemented by incandescent. Who else in going flourescent and LED can tell specifically what they are in color rendering index? You can bet your home center don’t sell a 85 CRI or better lamp at this point.

Or as heard on commercial tonight, “vanishing deductible”. Once the easy is listed in say doing good, it’s easy to get higher output and lamp life as listed. Back to the 1970's in green sickly hue to such inefficient flourescent lamps now more efficient than incandescent lamps. This CRI value is very important. This in me even now fighting the end guard to the entertainment industry going LED so far..

 

[derekleffew]

Hmm, not sure how useful this will be for stage/studio lamps.

 

[ship]

Hmm, not sure how useful this will be for stage/studio lamps.

Typically stage and studio and special different lamps are other than policy in compliance. For instance, you can still get a 150w PAR 38 lamp for certain applications or use. They are not the common grade of lamp, but its still available as a lamp type. Not as worried about stage and studio as per normal lighting. Can still get them Kleig light lamps - this even if the company went under years ago.

 

[JD]

Was just at a store the other day that had a special on A21s (40,60,100) Four for a buck. Went into "horde" mode and bought $50 worth. I am now picturing the future, when a SWAT team breaks down my door and arrests me for "possession of incandescents."

So, I guess I am now one of those radicals that Al Gore and the green movement hate. My feelings about CFLs are mutual.

 

[jhdesynz]

What? No carbon footprint messurement? How am I gonna know how many trees to burn?

On the flip side, this will be very usefull for stage lamps as well. Its hard sometimes to get all that info from manufacturer sites and now it will be on the boxes. It is very usefull for those of us that don't have Ship's filing system in our heads.

 

[ship]

What? No carbon footprint messurement? How am I gonna know how many trees to burn?

On the flip side, this will be very usefull for stage lamps as well. Its hard sometimes to get all that info from manufacturer sites and now it will be on the boxes. It is very usefull for those of us that don't have Ship's filing system in our heads.

True enough.... and much of what I type into my filing system stays in my head. On the other hand, presenting only one part of the info without the other part of the info don't help, in fact it hurts.

Compare the HTI 575w/D5/56 with the MSR 575/SA 2DE as came up today. MSR lamp has more in color temperature and lamp life, around the same in luminous output, but very different color rendering indexes. Were CRI not published and were color temperature not as dialed in for the need of the end user... one would than take the longer lamp life in exchange for a thousand fewer lumens. Still though, even if this case given the Philips lamp only has a 75 CRI and te Osram lamp is 85 CRI, it could be an important figure.

On say a compact fluorescent lamp we get an even larger scope of CRI when published at all. Hmm... who cares if it's say up to say 80CRI verses something in the 50's or 60's... It's a home owner usage of it. Brighter bulbs at some point only fool the eye and there is more than just energy efficiency or fooling the eye to consider in buying a lamp.

Beyond that... what specific formula is someone using on a compact fluorescent lamp for comparing it to an incandescent lamp? Does speaking of fooling the eye, a higher color temperature in appearing brighter play any role? Possibly not but possible. As with manufacturers on their lamp specificitaions, if going to put on the box some, put it all on with for an equal footing.

 

[jhdesynz]

Oh, I agree. CRI is needed also. That is a key factor in determining the quality of the white light.

 

[MaxS]

I agree that CRI is an important factor. It has been discussed; unfortunately the FTC doesn't seem to see it that way:

V.B.g. Color Rendering Index (Not Included on Label)
In its NPRM, the Commission did not propose a Color Rendering Index (“CRI”)
disclosure.105 CRI measures, on a scale of 0 to 100, how the color of an object appears when illuminated by a bulb in comparison to a reference light source of the same color temperature.106 In short, a higher CRI rated bulb renders an object’s color better than a lower rated bulb. As discussed in the NPRM, comments at the Roundtable and in response to the ANPR indicated that a CRI disclosure on the label would not help consumers. Specifically, commenters noted that, starting in 2012, EISA mandates a minimum CRI rating of 80 for all bulbs107 and consumers are not able to discern material differences in CRI above this threshold.108 Therefore, the Commission did not propose a CRI disclosure, but sought comment on whether to allow a voluntary CRI disclosure on the Lighting Facts label.

Comments: NEMA and CEE supported a voluntary disclosure. NEMA asserted that CRI will gain in importance with emerging LED technology, but did not explain why. CEE stated that manufacturers should have the discretion to include a CRI rating on the label. However, it did not explain why a voluntary disclosure would benefit consumers, and agreed that CRI did not warrant a mandatory disclosure. CEE also noted that the National Institute of Standards and Technology (“NIST”) is researching a color rendering measurement that may be superior to CRI.

Discussion: The final amendments do not permit a CRI disclosure on the Lighting Facts label. As explained in the NPRM, consumers will not benefit from a CRI disclosure after the minimum CRI rating of 80 goes into effect in 2012. Furthermore, CEE noted that NIST is researching an alternative measurement for color rendering. If NIST develops such a measurement, the Commission will consider whether it sufficiently benefits consumers to warrant placing it on the label. In the meantime, nothing prohibits manufacturers from making substantiated off-label CRI claims on the package.

Source, pp. 43-44: http://ftc.gov/os/2010/06/P084206lamplabeling.pdf

 

[PeteEngel]

Well, its not about how nutritious the lamps are, but how DELICIOUS! As for the label itself, what is acceptable for general lighting is rarely sufficient for entertainment or specialty lighting. even if it is implimented for lamps in our industry, it will have no reall affect. Lumen rating can easily be found from most manufacturers. This looks like an attempt to get feedback on an idea.

 

[chris325]

Well, its not about how nutritious the lamps are, but how DELICIOUS!

FELs probably have a ton of calories and bad cholesterol, but they've got to be high in protien and fiber!!

 

[zmb]

Lamp nutrition: how much energy a lamp consumes
Lamp taste: Quality of light outputted

That's one way to look at it.

 

[derekleffew]

Not bad, zmb, but I might suggest
Nutritional value = luminous efficacy
and taste is indeed quality of light emitted.

 

[DELO72]

Compare the HTI 575w/D5/56 with the MSR 575/SA 2DE as came up today. MSR lamp has more in color temperature and lamp life, around the same in luminous output, but very different color rendering indexes. Were CRI not published and were color temperature not as dialed in for the need of the end user... one would than take the longer lamp life in exchange for a thousand fewer lumens. Still though, even if this case given the Philips lamp only has a 75 CRI and te Osram lamp is 85 CRI, it could be an important figure.

This is actually one reason why for a lot of our discharge lamps have a lot of that information in the name of the lamp.

For instance, the HTI 575W/D5/56 mentioned above lets you know the color temperature without guessing or looking it up. 56 = 5600K. If it was the SharXS HTI 700W/D7/75 it would have a color temp of 7500K. You'll often find the higher the color temperature (bluer it is), the lower the CRI as there is less "red" in the output.


For Fluorescent lamps, and Ceramic Metal Halide, you'll often get both the CRI and the color temp in the name of the lamp (for Sylvania lamps at least. I'm not sure how all the others label their lamps as far as nomenclature goes).
If the lamp ends with 830, it means that it has a CRI >80, and a color temp of ~3000K. A lamp ending in 942 has a CRI of >90, and a color temp of 4200K.


"Also I might require dimmable verses non-dimmable to any such requirements." -Ship

I COMPLETELY agree with Ship on that quote above. Compact Fluorescents are a huge reason for this. I know some people who burned down a guest house on their property because they unknowingly put some compact fluorescent lamps on a dimmer switch. And, as some LED retrofit lamps can be dimmed (newest versions) and some can't. this is really essential info to put on the box!

 

[ship]

This is actually one reason why for a lot of our discharge lamps have a lot of that information in the name of the lamp.

For instance, the HTI 575W/D5/56 mentioned above lets you know the color temperature without guessing or looking it up. 56 = 5600K. If it was the SharXS HTI 700W/D7/75 it would have a color temp of 7500K. You'll often find the higher the color temperature (bluer it is), the lower the CRI as there is less "red" in the output.


For Fluorescent lamps, and Ceramic Metal Halide, you'll often get both the CRI and the color temp in the name of the lamp (for Sylvania lamps at least. I'm not sure how all the others label their lamps as far as nomenclature goes).
If the lamp ends with 830, it means that it has a CRI >80, and a color temp of ~3000K. A lamp ending in 942 has a CRI of >90, and a color temp of 4200K.


"Also I might require dimmable verses non-dimmable to any such requirements." -Ship

I COMPLETELY agree with Ship on that quote above. Compact Fluorescents are a huge reason for this. I know some people who burned down a guest house on their property because they unknowingly put some compact fluorescent lamps on a dimmer switch. And, as some LED retrofit lamps can be dimmed (newest versions) and some can't. this is really essential info to put on the box!

Ushio is also the same on fluorescent lamps.. not sure about the rest as much.

On the other hand... Osram as with most companies did their normal in designating the new lamp description for this new name and part number. The HTI 575w/DE part number as of 10/04 the last time I looked at the specification for the lamp was 54353.

Ok... so you have this customer looking for a replacement lamp for his Elation fixture. Specifies the above Osram lamp he would prefer over that of the Philips lamp the Elation Website speified for the fixture. (Educated customer... good thing and rare.) Look it up and the lamp don't exist in Osram's system In my notes as a lamp type but must be discontinued.. Ok... perhaps a typo, type in the part number... funny it also don't exist. Only thru doing a overall search into HTI 575, did I finally (after timing out a few times) find the lamp under it's new name and part number. Large waste of my time given Osram - and all companies appairently don't have enough webspace space so as to retain old lamps in their system. Say a big red crossed out mark over the specifications of the old lamp and a big Relaced by the.... with a hot link to it opton.

Na.. such a lamp don't exist so the customer as these lamps get re-named every few years, gets to waste time in finding out what it's currently called by way of if they took notes on the lamp type. Customer say has an Elation Power Spot 575IE, but a new one that say specifies also the Philips version. Ok.. Look up the Osram lamp... Don't exist and you are stuck with leg work due to a new name for the lamp by way of Osram and a wiping of the past existance of the lamp specified for by the fixture. Probably easier to just sell them the Philips lamp I can still get if in a rush - just tell them that the Osram lamp no longer exists as true and fair enough in honesty.


Overall... funny the new lamp codes in my opinion. Work with them but wish the older version didn't go away once canged on the website.

 

[DELO72]

Pete is correct. This thread has been completely hijacked. Based on the title we should be discussing vitamin content and health benefits of lamps when eaten.


But, as Ship puts up a good point, I have to agree. It is ASSININE that you can't find old lamps on the website. (I don't know if this is also true of my competitors, but hopefully they have better luck and sense than we do on this.) I've been fighting that battle (and losing) since I started working for OSI. I continue to push for it as it is ridiculous that they can't be retained and labeled as discontinued.

To quote Bill Clinton, "I feel your pain."

 

[ship]

Pete is correct. This thread has been completely hijacked. Based on the title we should be discussing vitamin content and health benefits of lamps when eaten.


But, as Ship puts up a good point, I have to agree. It is ASSININE that you can't find old lamps on the website. (I don't know if this is also true of my competitors, but hopefully they have better luck and sense than we do on this.) I've been fighting that battle (and losing) since I started working for OSI. I continue to push for it as it is ridiculous that they can't be retained and labeled as discontinued.

To quote Bill Clinton, "I feel your pain."

No better on other MFR websites and Mark is a theater person and really cool theater person friend in understanding our needs or concepts. Been there and done that in his past at a TD. Thanks for the attempt at knocking your head upside the wall above what we have in ability in trying at least. I assume the quest is constant as with mine in explaining that you are doing your best and hopefully someday one's head will break thru the wall if you just push or knock against it enough.

I'm sure we all know of such a situation in some way. Great fun, patience and never ending patience in getting done eventually what was obvious long ago. Thanks for the efforts.

Me... I finally got my lighting museum at work. Only took five years.