Set up/arrange lights

cmp914

Member
The school I work for had a new auditorium built a few years ago and I keep feeling like there has to be a better set up for the lights. I'll probably use the wrong terms for some things, so I apologize for that. We have 14 source four jrs on the first electric which is over the audience about fifty feet or so from the front of the stage. The second electric is two or three feet in from the front of the stage and the fifth is right at the back, the third and fourth are evenly spaced between. On the second there are six 6" fresnels, third has four sets of borderlights (altman 520 I think), fourth has six 6" fresnels, fifth has another four sets of borderlights. When we have band concerts on stage, the band teacher always seems to complain the back is not being lit well. I'm not sure how much I can do in terms of moving things because the wiring is rigged in a kind of permanent, non movable way.

Any suggestions?
 
The electric over the audience would be referred to as a FOH electric. Then your above stage electrics would count from 1 starting DS and going US, so the last one would be 4.
When you say "the wiring is rigged in a kind of permanent, non movable way", do you mean that they are hard wired in and don't use connectors? That would seem strange to me. When he says the back is not being lit well, does he mean there is not enough light in the back, or not enough back light?
 
My experience with school bands has led me to making sure I have a White top wash. The students tend to have a hard time reading their music if it isn't lit with white light. It pains me to do since they look so much better in saturated blues and reds, but if the kids can't read their music, then no one will care how pretty they looked.

I would make sure that your Fresnel's don't have any gel and just serve as stand lights. Make sure they are wide focused to cover as much of the stage as possible.

Take a picture of the set up if you can, including the electrics and one of your fixture's plugs/outlets.
 
I'm not sure how much I can do in terms of moving things because the wiring is rigged in a kind of permanent, non movable way.

It sounds to me like the band director thinks not enough light is getting to the faces/instruments of the band members furthest upstage. This is a fairly common problem, especially if it the proscenium is blocking the throw from the Source Four's to that furthest upstage line. Without a little further explanation about your quote above, it's hard to recommend anything except adding a few ellipsoidals to your first electric (as defined by @GreyWyvern), focused upstage. This is called an upstage facelight system, and is also fairly common due to the fact that many FOH systems are too close to the proscenium to effectively provide facelight much farther up than midstage or so.

That being said, it is possible the fixtures on the FOH electric are actually covering the area just fine, but simply aren't providing enough punch from that distance. Source Four Jr's are only lamped with 575 watt lamps, and don't come in anything under 26 degree. From that distance, the spread of the light is going to reduce the footcandles pretty noticeably. Proliferate that effect even more if there are CTO, diffusion, or frost gels in any of them, or if you happen to be using 36 degree fixtures instead of 26's.

In either event, an obvious answer is adding a upstage face system on first electric. If you have the ability to swap/move fixtures (depending on further information about your quote above), you may just be able to grab the S4 Jr's that are supposed to be covering upstage from your FOH electric, and move them to the first electric. Otherwise, are there any spare fixtures that you or the school uses to supplement the hang? Maybe for drama classes or school plays?
 
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The electric over the audience would be referred to as a FOH electric. Then your above stage electrics would count from 1 starting DS and going US, so the last one would be 4.
When you say "the wiring is rigged in a kind of permanent, non movable way", do you mean that they are hard wired in and don't use connectors? That would seem strange to me. When he says the back is not being lit well, does he mean there is not enough light in the back, or not enough back light?

I'm not quite sure how to explain it. The connectors are stage pin connectors but they are attached to connector strips with only about a foot of cable. I guess I could probably get a bunch of extensions. But my first 14 dmx channels are connected to the front of house and I wouldn't be able to move one of those source fours to the first electric because I wouldn't have a way to run an extension to there from the front of house. The set of has 48 channels and no way to add more as far as I can tell. The dmx cables get run into a dimmer cabinet which is completely closed off.
 
It sounds to me like the band director thinks not enough light is getting to the faces/instruments of the band members furthest upstage. This is a fairly common problem, especially if it the proscenium is blocking the throw from the Source Four's to that furthest upstage line. Without a little further explanation about your quote above, it's hard to recommend anything except adding a few ellipsoidals to your first electric (as defined by @GreyWyvern), focused upstage. This is called an upstage facelight system, and is also fairly common due to the fact that many FOH systems are too close to the proscenium to effectively provide facelight much farther up than midstage or so.

That being said, it is possible the fixtures on the FOH electric are actually covering the area just fine, but simply aren't providing enough punch from that distance. Source Four Jr's are only lamped with 575 watt lamps, and don't come in anything under 26 degree. From that distance, the spread of the light is going to reduce the footcandles pretty noticeably. Proliferate that effect even more if there are CTO, diffusion, or frost gels in any of them, or if you happen to be using 36 degree fixtures instead of 26's.

In either event, an obvious answer is adding a upstage face system on first electric. If you have the ability to swap/move fixtures (depending on further information about your quote above), you may just be able to grab the S4 Jr's that are supposed to be covering upstage from your FOH electric, and move them to the first electric. Otherwise, are there any spare fixtures that you or the school uses to supplement the hang? Maybe for drama classes or school plays?

Our drama club has just done the best we can with the set up we have so far. There are no spare fixtures. I thought about moving some of the source fours to the first electric, but that would mean taking down some of the Fresnel on the first electric, and I'm not sure whether of not that is actually better. It's also a lot of work because I need a thirty foot ladder to get to the source fours.
 
I'm not quite sure how to explain it. The connectors are stage pin connectors but they are attached to connector strips with only about a foot of cable. I guess I could probably get a bunch of extensions. But my first 14 dmx channels are connected to the front of house and I wouldn't be able to move one of those source fours to the first electric because I wouldn't have a way to run an extension to there from the front of house. The set of has 48 channels and no way to add more as far as I can tell. The dmx cables get run into a dimmer cabinet which is completely closed off.
Okay, stage pin connectors make sense. Do the connector strips have panel mount connectors or is that where the foot of cable you mentioned is? Either way, there should be a number on the strip next to the connector or cable. That is the dimmer number. How many connections are on each strip? You make it sound like there are only 6 on the electric with the fresnels. You should be able to move a source four from your FOH location and hang it on your 1st electric and just plug into one of the connections there. In your console, you should be able to patch any dimmer to any channel you want. Any light should be able to be on the dimmer and channel you want.
 
I'm not quite sure how to explain it. The connectors are stage pin connectors but they are attached to connector strips with only about a foot of cable. I guess I could probably get a bunch of extensions. But my first 14 dmx channels are connected to the front of house and I wouldn't be able to move one of those source fours to the first electric because I wouldn't have a way to run an extension to there from the front of house. The set of has 48 channels and no way to add more as far as I can tell. The dmx cables get run into a dimmer cabinet which is completely closed off.
It sounds like you have a 48 dimmer rack. Each dimmer is connected to a circuit which has one or more outlets on your electrics (you may even have a few circuits run to pockets in the stage floor). In some cases, a few dimmers in the stage dimmer rack are used for the house lights, but more often they are on a different system. (BTW, DMX is the control signal that tells the dimmer rack what to do - DMX does not travel from the dimmer to the fixture through the stage pin connector.)

Based on what you've said, it sounds like all of your on stage electrics have instruments attached to every circuit (at least this sounds like the case on the 1st electric). If each S4 Jr and fresnel is on a different dimmer and your borderlights are 3 color in 3 zones on each of the 2 electrics, that accounts for 44 of your dimmers.

Each dimmer is very likely to be capable of supplying 20 amps of dimmed power (up to 4 instruments lamped at 600W or less), so you might look into getting 2-fers (or 3-fers) as well as stage pin extension cables (often referred to as 'stingers') so you can connect multiple lights to the same circuit. You'll want several extensions in a variety of lengths from about 5' to 25'.

If your dimmer rack is a ETC Sensor you could even look into using dimmer doubling to control 2 HPL lamped instruments separately per dimmer. (Access to the rack would be required to put the dimmer into dimmer doubler mode.)
 
It sounds like you have a 48 dimmer rack. Each dimmer is connected to a circuit which has one or more outlets on your electrics (you may even have a few circuits run to pockets in the stage floor). In some cases, a few dimmers in the stage dimmer rack are used for the house lights, but more often they are on a different system. (BTW, DMX is the control signal that tells the dimmer rack what to do - DMX does not travel from the dimmer to the fixture through the stage pin connector.)

Based on what you've said, it sounds like all of your on stage electrics have instruments attached to every circuit (at least this sounds like the case on the 1st electric). If each S4 Jr and fresnel is on a different dimmer and your borderlights are 3 color in 3 zones on each of the 2 electrics, that accounts for 44 of your dimmers.

Each dimmer is very likely to be capable of supplying 20 amps of dimmed power (up to 4 instruments lamped at 600W or less), so you might look into getting 2-fers (or 3-fers) as well as stage pin extension cables (often referred to as 'stingers') so you can connect multiple lights to the same circuit. You'll want several extensions in a variety of lengths from about 5' to 25'.

If your dimmer rack is a ETC Sensor you could even look into using dimmer doubling to control 2 HPL lamped instruments separately per dimmer. (Access to the rack would be required to put the dimmer into dimmer doubler mode.)

That sounds about right. The dimmer rack is locked, and last time I asked about it nobody had a key to open in. If I use the 3-fers I wouldn't be able to dim those three individually, right? Sounds inconvenient, but doable.
 
Okay, stage pin connectors make sense. Do the connector strips have panel mount connectors or is that where the foot of cable you mentioned is? Either way, there should be a number on the strip next to the connector or cable. That is the dimmer number. How many connections are on each strip? You make it sound like there are only 6 on the electric with the fresnels. You should be able to move a source four from your FOH location and hang it on your 1st electric and just plug into one of the connections there. In your console, you should be able to patch any dimmer to any channel you want. Any light should be able to be on the dimmer and channel you want.

There are only six on the first electric. The stage pin connectors come out from the dimer rack up to the connector strips and each has six cable coming out, each fresnel is on one of the six.
 
That sounds about right. The dimmer rack is locked, and last time I asked about it nobody had a key to open in. If I use the 3-fers I wouldn't be able to dim those three individually, right? Sounds inconvenient, but doable.
Yes, 2-fers or 3-fers will not allow independent control of fixtures, but sometimes a design doesn't need that (unfortunately, these fixtures rarely want to be placed close to each other - thus the need for some long extensions).

Somebody should have a key to open it (or the authority to call in a locksmith). It might take a lot of time to find out who that person is AND they might choose not to entertain the idea of authorizing changing the configuration. Also, dimmer doublers are a little pricy (~$100) and require the sockets and connectors be changed on the fixtures you use them with. I certainly understand if you determine it is not worth pursuing.
 
There are only six on the first electric. The stage pin connectors come out from the dimer rack up to the connector strips and each has six cable coming out, each fresnel is on one of the six.
Six circuits are often run on 14 conductor cable (hot and neutral for each circuit plus two onductors for ground). 19 pin Socapex connectors are often used where these cables are not hardwired to equipment. This makes circuits distribuited in multiples of 6 very common. Do you have 18 circuits at FOH?
 
I think the first thing to check would be how the existing fixtures are focussed (aimed). While your current setup might not be ideal, I don't see any reason that it shouldn't be providing adequate and fairly even lighting across the stage. Flip through the lights one-by-one and note where they're shining on stage. Are some areas doubled/tripled, while some are lacking? I'd try to make every part of the stage lit by one of the JRs from FOH, every part lit by one of the 18 fresnels, and every part lit by one borderlight.
 
The border lights are set up so that the four on second electric are using six channels, three for two of them and three for the other two. Oddly enough, they aren't paired by which side of the stage they are on. If I call them 1, 2, 3, and 4 going left to right 1 and 3 are on the same three channels for their three colors and 2 and 4 are on the other three channels. I was wondering if I could have all four on the second electric running on just three channels. That way, when I want blue, I just raise one thing and all the blue on that electric come on instead of half. Is there any reason I shouldn't do that? That would free up those six to use and I could move around some of the Fresnels and source fours.
 
I think the first thing to check would be how the existing fixtures are focussed (aimed). While your current setup might not be ideal, I don't see any reason that it shouldn't be providing adequate and fairly even lighting across the stage. Flip through the lights one-by-one and note where they're shining on stage. Are some areas doubled/tripled, while some are lacking? I'd try to make every part of the stage lit by one of the JRs from FOH, every part lit by one of the 18 fresnels, and every part lit by one borderlight.

I actually did try this. There ends up being some overlap causing some spots to be brighter and darker than others, but even so the back row of the band is noticeably less bright than the front/middle.
 
Our drama club has just done the best we can with the set up we have so far. There are no spare fixtures. I thought about moving some of the source fours to the first electric, but that would mean taking down some of the Fresnel on the first electric, and I'm not sure whether of not that is actually better. It's also a lot of work because I need a thirty foot ladder to get to the source fours.
Let's step back so we are not guessing.
List the Brand of dimmers and how many. The name should be on the rack. Next the lighting brand and model. That will help us a lot.

Next sketch up a profile (side view) try to be accurate with dimensions. If you can't measure height, count the bricks and multiply. Draw the light bar positions. FOH 2, FOH 1, 1ST ELEC, 2ND, 3RD, 4TH, 5TH. From the front edge of the stage (for simplicity) exactly how far horizontal and vertical to each Bar.
Now how wide is your stage and how deep And tall.
Next draw a top view.
Draw it to scale and make a copy. You'll need it.

Once we know some of this it will help us and you determine whether th JR'S are too wide or small, or whether to angle and 2 fer the fresnels.
 
I was wondering if I could have all four on the second electric running on just three channels. That way, when I want blue, I just raise one thing and all the blue on that electric come on instead of half. Is there any reason I shouldn't do that? That would free up those six to use and I could move around some of the Fresnels and source fours.
You certainly can patch both the dimmers for each color to a single channel in your control board.

You may be able to run all the fixtures on an electric with just 3 circuts if the total wattage for a circuit does not exceed 2400W. If your borderlights are the 8' 3 circuit Altman 520's you have 28 lamps for each color on each electric. Lamped at 100W they would exceed the circuit capacity. If they are the 6' 9" 3 circuit model than you have 24 lamps for each color on each electric, so one 20 amp circuit would be just enough to run them all with 100W lamps.
 
You certainly can patch both the dimmers for each color to a single channel in your control board.

You may be able to run all the fixtures on an electric with just 3 circuts if the total wattage for a circuit does not exceed 2400W. If your borderlights are the 8' 3 circuit Altman 520's you have 28 lamps for each color on each electric. Lamped at 100W they would exceed the circuit capacity. If they are the 6' 9" 3 circuit model than you have 24 lamps for each color on each electric, so one 20 amp circuit would be just enough to run them all with 100W lamps.

I guess I phrased that ambiguously. I'm not sure of lengths, but I believe each borderlight has 15 lamps, three colors, so 60 lamps on one electric and 20 lamps of each color. I guess that would mean 20 lamps per circut, but I'm not sure if the lamps are 100W. I actually think the spares we have to replace them are 60W or something like that.
 
Let's step back so we are not guessing.
List the Brand of dimmers and how many. The name should be on the rack. Next the lighting brand and model. That will help us a lot.

Next sketch up a profile (side view) try to be accurate with dimensions. If you can't measure height, count the bricks and multiply. Draw the light bar positions. FOH 2, FOH 1, 1ST ELEC, 2ND, 3RD, 4TH, 5TH. From the front edge of the stage (for simplicity) exactly how far horizontal and vertical to each Bar.
Now how wide is your stage and how deep And tall.
Next draw a top view.
Draw it to scale and make a copy. You'll need it.

Once we know some of this it will help us and you determine whether th JR'S are too wide or small, or whether to angle and 2 fer the fresnels.

Unfortunately, I have pretty much none of this information available. I'm home now and won't be back in the building until Monday. The only thing I'm sure of is the dimmer rack and dimmers are ETC.
 

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