I am currently in production meetings for a show I am sound designing/engineering this Spring and the director and musical director have asked me if it would be possible to use Autotune live to help out two of the secondary principles who are sometimes having trouble staying completely on pitch. Personally, I think this is ridiculous but that is sort of besides the point. I think I can do this by routing an insert on their body mic channels (Countryman B3 via Sennheiser 500g2) into a computer running Autotune under a VST host program and then back in to the mixer (DM1000v2) but does anyone know if it will be able to do a decent job live? I haven't ever used Autotune before but I recall seeing in a presentation on it that you need to give it the key for each song to get good results. I would imagine that I could automate this via MIDI from the DM1000 to be recalled in conjunction with each scene but I could be off on this. Anyway, my basic questions are: 1) Will it sound alright? 2) Are there technical hurdles that I haven't thought of that I should be prepared for? and 3) Has anyone ever done this and, if so, do you have any advice/thoughts?
Autotune in Musical Theatre
- Thread startermetti
- Start date
Also, would there be a major advantage to using a dedicate piece of outboard hardware. If so, which would be best? We could probably afford to spend about $1k total so we would need to be looking for units that come in around $500 each. From what I can see, that includes the Antares AVP, TC Helicon VoiceWorks or TC Helicon VoiceWorksPlus. Thoughts?
I think you will find that there is too much delay if you try to use a computer/plugin
I have use the Antares for live. To get the best result you need to make sure you have it set for the Key of the song etc. Also make sure that you do NOT SEND THE CORRECTED AUDIO BACK TO THE SINGER, that causes all sorts of problems with the singer attempting to correct etc.
Here is a link for a lively discussion on this
Autotune in live performance - Gearslutz.com
Sharyn
I have use the Antares for live. To get the best result you need to make sure you have it set for the Key of the song etc. Also make sure that you do NOT SEND THE CORRECTED AUDIO BACK TO THE SINGER, that causes all sorts of problems with the singer attempting to correct etc.
Here is a link for a lively discussion on this
Autotune in live performance - Gearslutz.com
Sharyn
I agree that latency could be an issue. You might even want to split the related mic signal to two inputs so you have separate natural and pitch corrected signals to route.
The use of autotune and identifying its use to patrons and ticket purchasers should probably be a separate discussion, however you might want to consider such issues and the reaction of the audience if/when they realize it is being used.
The use of autotune and identifying its use to patrons and ticket purchasers should probably be a separate discussion, however you might want to consider such issues and the reaction of the audience if/when they realize it is being used.
Stookeybrd
Active Member
Latency will definitely be a problem. Using a computer which will also have AD DA conversions too, may create a delay so severe that it is unusable. Even the dedicated hardware option will have a few milli seconds delay.
Also consider the quantity/quality of the pitch correction. If these singers slightly slip off pitch for a moment, I believe very few people will notice that you have them tune'd. However, if they can not hit that high note during the button of the song, the correction may become apparent to many people. Rent one first and make sure that the director and MD understand what they are asking for.
Let us know how it goes, I'm interested to see how Auto-Tune performs in musical theater.
Also consider the quantity/quality of the pitch correction. If these singers slightly slip off pitch for a moment, I believe very few people will notice that you have them tune'd. However, if they can not hit that high note during the button of the song, the correction may become apparent to many people. Rent one first and make sure that the director and MD understand what they are asking for.
Let us know how it goes, I'm interested to see how Auto-Tune performs in musical theater.
Would using one of the various dedicated hardware options help to limit the issues of latency? I know not to send the corrected version back to the vocalist and they don't get any of themselves back in the monitor anyway, only the orchestra. I like the idea of doing a wet/dry channels. As far as PR issues are concerned, I will do my best not to make it apparent and I will let the director/producers who asked for this to be done handle the press. I would assume that they are going to go with a "what they don't know won't hurt them" sort of perspective. I suspect they won't even tell the actors although I'm not sure about their plans in that regard.
banjokeith
Member
So when I fly a person for a show, do I need to alert the audience that the person is being flown with the assistance of cables, and is not actually able to fly on their own?
We, the audience, have no expectation they can fly on their own. We do have an expectation they're capable of singing, especially if casting was done properly.
Look, I think that this thread is drifting away from my original intention. This was not meant to turn into a debate about the relative merits of autotune. I personally feel that they should think about stuff like talent during the casting process and, as such, this wouldn't be an issue. That said, I am not in a position to decide who tells what to whom and, quite frankly, it isn't really my problem. While I CAN argue to the rest of the creative team that this isn't technically possible or that it will sound so bad that it would be better to deal with their mediocre singing, I CANNOT argue that this is an ethical or PR issue. I don't feel like this is a battle I want to have at this point. If someone tells me that this is going to sound bad than that is one thing but the theatre's relationship with the audience is sort of above my pay grade. I am quite sure that those in charge are fully aware of the decisions they are making and potential repercussions.
Wrong, you willnotargue that this is an ethical or PR issue. But I'll be honest as a designer you can and you should. If there were negative fallout from this it would be on your head as the person who spec'd the autotune machine and then ran it. It is your job to let the director and everyone else on the creative team know all the pro's and con's of a given situation without biased.
From a technical standpoint, as has been mentioned, there will be delay/latency. Also you need to consider the size of the house. You can only autotune what gets into the microphone, and in a 200 seat house you're going to run into the issue of hearing whats coming from the singers mouth and whats coming from the mix.
Agree fully. Its your name that goes on the show and when/if it sounds like crap it is your name that is going to take the blame. Brittany, Justin, and just about every pop start out there have a rack of gear that goes everywhere they go with all their tunning and lip sync gear in it. Its not a cheap thing to do well. Better devices then what musicians friend and banjo center sell exist. Because you mentioned the DM1000, I have a feeling you don't want to spend more then your console on a good autotune system. That very well could be the case if you decide to go the cheaper route. 99% of autotune out there is designed for the recording studio, not live. If they can't hit the note, they can't hit the note. If this is a professional show, the can cast someone else and fire the person who can't sing. If this is in the world of education, which I think it is, deal with it. This is not the place to be teaching bad habits such as autotune, back tracks, and choke tracks. It gives a false sense of security to the talent and can really mess up their future, let alone what will happen to their ego when it gets out that they had to use autotune.
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shiben
Well-Known Member
And it will get out. And people will talk. THe worst thing is that you will then be looking at auto-tuning every single poor singer that the director now knows that they can cast because you can fix it with technology. Will it work? Sure. It can be done live. Done well? Maybe. Should it be done? I think no in all situations, but its become accepted that major pop artists no longer need to be able to sing really well, just be able to dance and sing ok enough for the machine to fix it. Im thinking you might want to go ahead and bring it up to the director the ethical issues of doing this, not as a "your wrong for even thinking of this" but as a "here are the issues, did you realise your bringing up all these issues by doing this thing?'
You guys are right. It is my name on the sound design and it is my job to stop them from doing stupid stuff to a degree. As I said, I will definitely put the kibosh on this if it isn't going to sound good. Also, in all honesty it probably won't get out because the only people who would know would be the director, the MD, one of the producers, and myself and I don't think any of us would spill the beans. I do think they understand the potential for PR problems and I will certainly discuss those with them but I do feel like as a creative professional, my job is sort of limited to the actual performance and not what happens after to the theatre. On the other hand, I could potentially look bad for using this kind of gear, although I'm not sure it necessarily reflects poorly on an SD as much as it does on the people who needed it in the first place. Also, this is not educational theatre. I do work in schools sometimes and I would NEVER use Autotune in this context. Rather, this is a well established community theatre. All of the actors are unpaid and all of the creative team is paid and there are usually considerable budgets for the shows (except for sound, sigh...) Anyway, I am pretty conflicted on this issue and I am sort of leaning towards shooting it down but I figured I should at least explore the possibility. On a related note, someone mentioned to me on a different forum that perhaps giving the performers in question IEMs could help them to overcome their issues. I have never seen this done in theatre but I would welcome thoughts.
banjokeith
Member
I didn't mean to get a fight going here, but I just picture the silliness of walking into a theater and seeing an easel with a sign saying:
"Due to a lack of ability, coupled with the poor casting by our production team, tonight's performance will be utilizing Autotune"
I strongly agree that it will set a bad casting precedent if your directors now see this as a viable option, but to raise an ethical question just seems a bit extreme. In the end, you're delivering an entertainment product. This isn't journalism - we don't need to declare when something is a photo illustration - sometimes tricks are used, reality is tweaked a bit. Whether it's a soprano offstage hitting a high note for an onstage character, or a gadget upstairs bending a note a quarter of a step, the end result is providing a good show to the people paying to see one. Honestly, as an audience member I would much rather hear a good show that may have some minor trickery added than have my hearing assaulted by sour notes. The people have already been cast - assuming there is nothing you can do about that, you owe it to the audience not to give them crap.
And before it comes back at me, minor - in my opinion - doesn't cover lipsyncing...unless you are wearing a giant mascot head and scooting around on ice
"Due to a lack of ability, coupled with the poor casting by our production team, tonight's performance will be utilizing Autotune"
I strongly agree that it will set a bad casting precedent if your directors now see this as a viable option, but to raise an ethical question just seems a bit extreme. In the end, you're delivering an entertainment product. This isn't journalism - we don't need to declare when something is a photo illustration - sometimes tricks are used, reality is tweaked a bit. Whether it's a soprano offstage hitting a high note for an onstage character, or a gadget upstairs bending a note a quarter of a step, the end result is providing a good show to the people paying to see one. Honestly, as an audience member I would much rather hear a good show that may have some minor trickery added than have my hearing assaulted by sour notes. The people have already been cast - assuming there is nothing you can do about that, you owe it to the audience not to give them crap.
And before it comes back at me, minor - in my opinion - doesn't cover lipsyncing...unless you are wearing a giant mascot head and scooting around on ice
Unlike in a recording studio, in live audio the audio sources can only degrade after they've left the singers' mouths. From there, it's all downhill. If they're too far away from the mic, unable to project, or have a way that they're being mic'ed that isn't working for them, it's our jobs as sound people to do what we need to to resolve the situation. Even if it's a pristine signal coming out of the microphone, it can only degrade in quality as it passes through more processing devices, feet of cable, and so on.
If the problem is their fault, then we need to tell them, "Hey, there are a couple parts in this song that are coming across as a little weak. If you have some time, you should work on them and bring them up to the same level of quality as the rest of your performance." That's just as we would tell them, "If you want to be heard, you really need to practically put your lips on the microphone and speak up."
We owe it to our performers to tell them the cold truth when we need to. It's our job to say, "There's this one area of the song where you're not quite in tune. We need to figure out a way to make this work. If you need to practice, practice. If you feel your struggling to hear your monitors, we can try turning them up to see if that helps. Let us work with you to make this performance excellent."
Comfort's overrated. I don't have the time or patience to baby cast members just like I wouldn't baby my crew members. If they're hitting my expectations, I tell them "Good Job!" and if they're falling short, I either need to reevaluate how realistic my expectations are or I need to walk up to them and say, "This is something I'd like you to work on. Your other stuff is alright, but this thing is something I know you can be better at." If you're honest with the cast, they'll respect you a lot more than if they find out you've secretly been judging their every move. More importantly, that you're willing to spend $1000 behind their backs on something like an autotune rig when you could be putting them through some extra voice lessons.
If the problem is their fault, then we need to tell them, "Hey, there are a couple parts in this song that are coming across as a little weak. If you have some time, you should work on them and bring them up to the same level of quality as the rest of your performance." That's just as we would tell them, "If you want to be heard, you really need to practically put your lips on the microphone and speak up."
We owe it to our performers to tell them the cold truth when we need to. It's our job to say, "There's this one area of the song where you're not quite in tune. We need to figure out a way to make this work. If you need to practice, practice. If you feel your struggling to hear your monitors, we can try turning them up to see if that helps. Let us work with you to make this performance excellent."
Comfort's overrated. I don't have the time or patience to baby cast members just like I wouldn't baby my crew members. If they're hitting my expectations, I tell them "Good Job!" and if they're falling short, I either need to reevaluate how realistic my expectations are or I need to walk up to them and say, "This is something I'd like you to work on. Your other stuff is alright, but this thing is something I know you can be better at." If you're honest with the cast, they'll respect you a lot more than if they find out you've secretly been judging their every move. More importantly, that you're willing to spend $1000 behind their backs on something like an autotune rig when you could be putting them through some extra voice lessons.
MNicolai, while that is all good and true in theory, I don't really think it is within my purview to be offering cast members notes. While I am in charge of my crew, and I am more than happy to tell them when they are doing something wrong, the director, MD, and SM are really responsible for the cast and I don't think it would go over well if I started going up to cast members and critiquing their performances. Also, the director and MD are already well aware of the cast members' issues and have been working with them to fix them. This is sort of a last resort besides recasting, which isn't going to happen. Regardless of the potential ethical issues, I think that this probably just isn't going to sound good due to the numerous factors in play in live sound such as the fact that we can't really fully isolate mics to pick up only their wearer. As I don't think this is going to produce favorable results, I'm probably going to veto this at our next production meeting.
pmolsonmus
Active Member
I don't think its good in theory OR practice.
If a tech is giving technical advice - "watch it when you're turning your head we're losing you in the mic" - "Do you need more monitor" I can live with that.
HOWEVER,
If a tech, or SM or..... starts giving musical or theatre direction in my production, they will be looking for work elsewhere faster than than the out of tune singer. If the director isn't aware of the problem, then a new director is needed, if they can't fix the problem, then a new director or casting director or cast member is needed.
40 people telling someone they are out of tune with no training on how to fix the problem is the tech equivalent of a wanker or knob twiddler on the light/sound board only it can make the problem even worse for the performer. Stick to your expertise, direct your concerns to the director (if for some reason you don't think the director is aware of the problem). Otherwise, mind your business and do YOUR job, not mine.
bishopthomas
Well-Known Member
I was amazed to see the number of replies in such a short period of time, but upon reading them saw that not a single one was helpful to the OP. Metti, I am in total agreement with your views on this, both technically and ethically. If the director wants to use Autotune on the ****ty singers then do your best to make it work. If it doesn't work then go from there. All you can do is educate the director of the TECHNICAL reasons why it would or wouldn't work and do your best. We are expected as technicians to "make magic happen," whether it's autotuning a vocal or eq'ing a bad sounding guitar amp. It doesn't reflect poorly on Ashley Simpson's FOH person for pressing play on a CD player, it is a reflection of the performer. It is your job to give the audience as good a sounding show as possible, and that includes using the necessary tools at your disposal. So, about those tools...
I think you'll have better results with dedicated outboard gear. Antares is "THE" Autotune, so check into their offerings first. I see that you have posted this question at PSW as well. I think you'll have better luck with a "real" answer there. No offense to the CB members, but there are far more professional audio people there. You can also try searching/posting at Gearslutz.com. This site is more for recording, but the Remote Possibilities forum is dedicated to live recording and also covers live sound as well. It is really the only forum on GS that I visit and has some great people in it.
I think you'll have better results with dedicated outboard gear. Antares is "THE" Autotune, so check into their offerings first. I see that you have posted this question at PSW as well. I think you'll have better luck with a "real" answer there. No offense to the CB members, but there are far more professional audio people there. You can also try searching/posting at Gearslutz.com. This site is more for recording, but the Remote Possibilities forum is dedicated to live recording and also covers live sound as well. It is really the only forum on GS that I visit and has some great people in it.
You can get different perspectives from CB, PSW and GS and that can be valuable. That being said, all of these forums include both professionals and amateurs. Several of the responders here also participate in the other forums you noted, are they somehow less experts when they're here? A number of the people that have responded to this thread are indeed professionals in theatre and isn't that the application involved? Getting as much input as possible is good but I think you underestimate many of the people here.
Since you brought up the PSW thread maybe it would be helpful to comment on the responses there. The concerns regarding latency and the performer hearing the pitch corrected sound had also been noted here. So was that if the pitch is far enough off then autotune can improperly 'correct' it and that can lead to readily audible issues. And the suggestion to have split inputs for direct and autotuned. The only two additional issues raised in the PSW discussion seemed to be that some of the audience would likely be hearing a mix of the natural and reinforced 'autotuned' sound and that the 'autotuned' mics could potentially pick up other sounds and voices as well as having other mics picking up the poor singers. The general consensus there was also that autotune was probably not a great idea in theatre applications.
I don't think you can ignore the ethical aspect of using autotune, at least not in an application where the audience may be assuming everything is live. I personally believe that the use of autotune in live performances may be somewhat contextual. For example, the perspective on the use of autotune for a performance at an educational institution where the performers are acting students that are supposed to be learning their craft may differ from a professional production, which may also differ from a local community production.
I also think the responses here, and the differences with those expressed elsewhere, may reflect the varying roles of sound designers and technician/operators, between a focus on the concept versus a focus on the implementation. Many of the people expressing views on the concept of using autotune are likely doing so from the perspective of the sound designer role while the technical aspects of implementing it may be more representative of the perspective of an operator or A1. If Matthew is the Sound Designer then I believe there is some reason and even obligation to address the concept and not just the implementation.
