Anvilx
Active Member
That seems backwards to me, I should rather fall and likely hurt myself than hang around for a few hours while someone figured out how to get me down?
I suppose that depends on the space...
Working at Heights Practices
- Thread starterMNicolai
- Start date
That seems backwards to me, I should rather fall and likely hurt myself than hang around for a few hours while someone figured out how to get me down?
I suppose that depends on the space...
It has nothing to do with the space. Google "suspension trauma" and/or "harness hang syndrome". If you've been "hanging around" for a few hours, they'll be calling the coroner.
You are exactly right, I believe 14 minutes is the time for an unconcious person to die in a harness. If you attach to a building point and the lift falls out from under you, many times you nowhere near a catwalk or any way of getting close to you by climbing. Then the only object that reaches that area is not down and out of service. At that point even rescue personel is going to have figure a new means of even getting to you.
Now sometimes OSHA gets a little silly with requests. I was on a construction site a couple of years ago and the 85ft lift was beside a lagoon. The inspector wanted me to wear a vest and a harness. First the water was five feet at the deepest, then he wanted me to wear something that was going to tie me to the machine but put a flotation device that would pop me up. I explained that the two could not coexist, he finally saw the light.
The long and short of it is telling somebody to buy safety gear but then they have no training can make it more dangerous than not having one at all.It is funny that I am as safety concious as I am because I am an old school tech that grew up with no safety devices. I walked trusses with nothing, climbed all kind of crazy things and done other things that are absolutely not allowed these days. Today I am a huge advocate of safety, including being properly trained to use mmechanical platforms.
I work in a state that OSHA doesn't cover gov't employees but why wouldn't you still teach all the aspects of safety in a lift, even if you aren't required to use them. That way a person has the option to use the measures if they wish. If they don't know about the options they will be inherently less safe.
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On the topic of suspension trauma, my local safety supplier has a "Suspension Trauma Safety Strap" that can be added to your harness. Basically the strap will allow you to stand up and relieve the pressure while you're dangling in the air waiting for rescue which greatly increases the amount of time you have before trauma sets in. While I never intend to take a tumble in my harness, this seemed like a smart $20 to spend.
The deployed strap:
Normally it is wrapped up in two small pouches completely out of the way.
On a somewhat related note, are arena high riggers required to wear hardhats in your jurisdiction?
The deployed strap:
Normally it is wrapped up in two small pouches completely out of the way.
On a somewhat related note, are arena high riggers required to wear hardhats in your jurisdiction?
On the topic of suspension trauma, my local safety supplier has a "Suspension Trauma Safety Strap" that can be added to your harness. Basically the strap will allow you to stand up and relieve the pressure while you're dangling in the air waiting for rescue which greatly increases the amount of time you have before trauma sets in. While I never intend to take a tumble in my harness, this seemed like a smart $20 to spend.
The deployed strap:
Normally it is wrapped up in two small pouches completely out of the way.
On a somewhat related note, are arena high riggers required to wear hardhats in your jurisdiction?
Hardhats are great but are rarely seen if ever onstage in the states. In fact, the only time I have seen hard hats used in an entertainment situation is on the in of a Cirque arena show. Even then, only the road crew wore hard hats (actually climbing helmets). Nothing was even mentioned to the house crew about it.
As far as the safety strap goes.... that is great as long as you are still conscious and red liquid is not pouring out of your body. If your venue thinks it can not rescue you before suspension trauma sets in, you might as well just pick out a headstone before you go up to the steel. Its a great thing to have, but it really should not be required. You should be down on the deck way before the thought of suspension trauma comes into play. The odds of falling and being un-injured are slim at best. Your going to hit your head on the way down. Added to that, your going to have some injuries from the harness and the fall arrest.
skienblack
Active Member
Up riggers do not need to wear hardhats, there is nothing to protect from. It is the same as a roofer on a construction site, he is above the action. I have seen companies like Disney and Troika carry bump caps for certain buildings. My building is an example, we have a drop ceiling in the arena and from time to time a tile will fall because we are trying to pull them from above the grid. A ceiling tile from 45 ft is not good.
Dionysus
Well-Known Member
Just for the sake of a different perspective I work as an electrician (construction) along with working in theatre doing lighting/sound/rigging/etc. And not only that but I work and live in Canada, not the USA.
For the most-part I find that the general rules between the US and Canada are the same, if not very similar. In some cases the wording is a bit different, and in others things differ much more noticeably. This is the same with electrical codes, building codes (much more of Canada has to deal with more of a snow-load than much of the US for example.).
Here when working on a catwalk with adequate guard rails (particular heights, ratings, blah, blah...) you do not need a harness or further fall-restraint devices. This is unless you start reaching out, standing not on the catwalk floor, or putting your body between the rails... or if you are expected to be doing any of these things. Then you need further fall restraint. While the letter of the law says all that is required is a fall restraint belt and rope (while adequately designed) most often you will find people insisting on a harness and arresting lanyard. This is the exact same with vertical 'scissor' lifts and scaffolding (under various circumstances).
However often people do not tie-off in these circumstances to an anchorage point designed for fall arrest. However technically in violation of the law, this is generally accepted even my ministry of labour inspectors.
Here YOU cannot decide that a point is actually rated or not for fall arrest, the 5000# rule-of-thumb is frowned upon. You are supposed to have an engineering firm ensure that a particular anchorage point can be used for fall arrest. The only exception is pre-engineered devices/points when installed to the manufacturer's directions.
However in the past I have seen many times when even with pre-engineered devices I would not like the structure supporting it to take the force of an arrested fall.
The guideline is that any worker who has had an arrested fall must be rescued in no more than 30 minutes. A written plan must (however usually is not, except in theaters and the sort. Never seen one for most sites I've been on) be created with an action plan on how a worker is to be rescued in the event of a fall. Often this is delegated to the fire department. However some places like Canada's Wonderland (amusement park) have a high-angle rescue team.
I have to say even though 99% of the time someone who is in a lift is wearing a harness (often improperly), they are connected to an arresting lanyard, to something that is not meant to take an arresting load. I would not like to see someone arrested from a fully extended scissor lift. And here you MUST be tied off in a lift whenever you are above 10' from ground level, not just when leaning out of the lift.
I know a bit of a rant. But meah, I haven't posted much in a long time.
For the most-part I find that the general rules between the US and Canada are the same, if not very similar. In some cases the wording is a bit different, and in others things differ much more noticeably. This is the same with electrical codes, building codes (much more of Canada has to deal with more of a snow-load than much of the US for example.).
Here when working on a catwalk with adequate guard rails (particular heights, ratings, blah, blah...) you do not need a harness or further fall-restraint devices. This is unless you start reaching out, standing not on the catwalk floor, or putting your body between the rails... or if you are expected to be doing any of these things. Then you need further fall restraint. While the letter of the law says all that is required is a fall restraint belt and rope (while adequately designed) most often you will find people insisting on a harness and arresting lanyard. This is the exact same with vertical 'scissor' lifts and scaffolding (under various circumstances).
However often people do not tie-off in these circumstances to an anchorage point designed for fall arrest. However technically in violation of the law, this is generally accepted even my ministry of labour inspectors.
Here YOU cannot decide that a point is actually rated or not for fall arrest, the 5000# rule-of-thumb is frowned upon. You are supposed to have an engineering firm ensure that a particular anchorage point can be used for fall arrest. The only exception is pre-engineered devices/points when installed to the manufacturer's directions.
However in the past I have seen many times when even with pre-engineered devices I would not like the structure supporting it to take the force of an arrested fall.
The guideline is that any worker who has had an arrested fall must be rescued in no more than 30 minutes. A written plan must (however usually is not, except in theaters and the sort. Never seen one for most sites I've been on) be created with an action plan on how a worker is to be rescued in the event of a fall. Often this is delegated to the fire department. However some places like Canada's Wonderland (amusement park) have a high-angle rescue team.
I have to say even though 99% of the time someone who is in a lift is wearing a harness (often improperly), they are connected to an arresting lanyard, to something that is not meant to take an arresting load. I would not like to see someone arrested from a fully extended scissor lift. And here you MUST be tied off in a lift whenever you are above 10' from ground level, not just when leaning out of the lift.
I know a bit of a rant. But meah, I haven't posted much in a long time.
A couple of New York OHS links:
OSHA’s State Summary:
New York State Plan Information
NY State Department of Labor
New York State Department of Labor - DOSH PESH
And it would be worth looking into New York City laws and regulations.
Joe
OSHA’s State Summary:
New York State Plan Information
NY State Department of Labor
New York State Department of Labor - DOSH PESH
And it would be worth looking into New York City laws and regulations.
Joe
My local had hard hats as a required tool item. We regularly used them for touring shows whenever high work was being done. After that we didn't need to wear them. Also, I think that Rhino (multi-regional staging company) also requires the use of hard hats in similar situations.
I agree that anyone using a lift should have proper training. Then again, I think training on many systems are lacking. As for the hand rails being able to lay down, no one should ever be elevated with them down. The reason they can lay down is to allow the lift to be able to manuver through doorways. The welded rigging point attached to the handrails is a convenience point to attach utilities and not for personal protection.
Catwalk railings can only protect you if you stay on the catwalk (don't climb on rails or use a ladder) and do not lean through them. If you pass your chest through the guardrail, you have now put yourself at risk of falling. I have a good idea that is what happened to the stagehand in Florida. If you need to change gel or a barrel, break the focus of the instrument so that only your arms need to reach through and no other part of your body. If you are unable to do this, it is imperative that you have a safety inspector help to develop a safety system.
I spoke with my theatrical supplier. According to him and his training, OSHA requires harnesses in all powered lifts at all times. Having looked through the OSHA regs, that's my conclusion as well unless I've missed something.
Then why does my Genie scissor lift have a point with a big sticker that reads "Lanyard Attachment Point"?
Then why does my Genie scissor lift have a point with a big sticker that reads "Lanyard Attachment Point"?
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Before we go crazy on the subject of Suspension Trauma, which tends to happen every time I've heard it mentioned recently, can we clear a few things? Falling and being arrested in a harness is not a death sentence. Hanging , imobile, unconscious in an improperly fitted/worn harness can cause suspension trauma in as little as 10 min < some studies show 6>. Someone who has the ability of even limited mobility has greatly reduced chances of developing ST or HHS even after 30 minutes. In most urban areas, where most of us work, the chances are that Emergency services will be able to reach a venue in under 5 minutes , 5 minutes to asses the situation, and 20 minutes to effect a rescue. even by those stats a completly unconscious person is within the 30 minute resue window.
This has become an issue for me as I recently was re-certified as a rock climbing/rappelling instructor and some of the kids I was working with had heard these stories of ST or HHS I had a harder time convincing them it was safe to wear a harness than I did convincing them to trust a rope with their weight on it. And before any fingers start flying I'm also a former High Angle Evacuation Specialist so I'm not just blowing smoke.
This has become an issue for me as I recently was re-certified as a rock climbing/rappelling instructor and some of the kids I was working with had heard these stories of ST or HHS I had a harder time convincing them it was safe to wear a harness than I did convincing them to trust a rope with their weight on it. And before any fingers start flying I'm also a former High Angle Evacuation Specialist so I'm not just blowing smoke.
The point on the handrails is for accessories. There will be a point on newer units for attaching your lanyard for fall restraint. And as with catwalks, you must remain on the floor of the lift (not on the handrails or even toeboard) and do not overextend your reach, which the restraint should prevent.
Van, I agree you don't want to go crazy about death from suspension trauma but it has to be considered in your safety plan. It is something of which anybody climbing has to be aware. I have been climbing since the mid-seventies and have never seen it happen, doesn't mean we don't need to protect against.
Mike, I will look at the regs to find the part that shows which type of requires what type of protection.
Mike, I will look at the regs to find the part that shows which type of requires what type of protection.
What Rigger?
I'm so fly....I Neverland.
Hardhats are great but are rarely seen if ever onstage in the states. In fact, the only time I have seen hard hats used in an entertainment situation is on the in of a Cirque arena show. Even then, only the road crew wore hard hats (actually climbing helmets). Nothing was even mentioned to the house crew about it.
Cirque, as a general practice, are now using Rope Access, and climbing helmets are a requirement under RA protocols, be they SPRAT or IRATA. But if you're working under a RA tech you are also required to have a hard hat of some sort on as well.
Cirque, as a general practice, are now using Rope Access, and climbing helmets are a requirement under RA protocols, be they SPRAT or IRATA. But if you're working under a RA tech you are also required to have a hard hat of some sort on as well.
Blacksheep0317
Active Member
OSHA is a touchy subject in many many ways..
Also being someone in NY i feel the issue here as well. While your workplace may not fall under direct OSHA jurisdiction, what about your insurance providers? What about the lawyers if someone gets hurt? Just because you may not be fined by OSHA doesn't mean that it cant come back later on being the industry standard of safety. Also, many insurers in their policies clearly state that all common safety practices must be followed, meaning that if you take a tumble you may not be getting that nice check in the mail or bills covered.
That being said, a harness is not fall arrest in and upon it self. As a rigger and high angle rescue trained fireman, fall arrest is an entire system. The harness is simply the means to attach you to said system. The best thing for you would to bring in a safty consultant who is certified in such set-ups. There are big forces involved here that need to be addressed. Physics is a wonderful thing, and a 200 pound man falling has a lot more energy in him than alot of people would assume. Get the pros in, spend money now, save a life and lawsuit later. Its better in the long run, I promise.
As to a intervention should someone fall? Again..get with your local jurisdiction. Again, this is somewhere a pro should be involved. Unless you have someone trained in rescue work you can do more harm than good, as well as put yourself in a bad spot. One person to rescue is enough, no need to put yourself in harms way and make it two. As much as suspension trauma can be a concern, it is much less likely than spinal injuries sustained from either the fall or perhaps what ever caused the fall. Was the person hit in the head with tension steel doing a hang?
In all cases the best thing is to get a pro in the room and discuss your exact situation. But remember, a failure to plan is a plan to fail!
Wow!! Reading this makes me feel like there is a lot of safety stuff not implemented in my area. At my school, as well as most other places I've worked/visited, no one even owns a harness. Of course, we're in the Midwest. I'll go up in a lift 25+ feet without even thinking about a harness, hardhat, or plan to rescue someone that's fallen. We also have a 15 foot ladder in our auditorium that I'll walk around on while 15 feet in the air. Of course, I've been doing that kind of stuff my whole life whether in the theater or on a farm and know my limits. Plus everybody else knows not to go on the lift or ladder, plus they're not allowed. And there always has to be someone else in the room.
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
And this is why accidents happen walking ladders is horrible even if you do it for a long time. Not to mention I bet you have never been certified to use this lift.
Sorry but this proves to be a valid safety concern and needs to be addressed immediately. Granted harnesses to me are useless in a lift but walking a ladder?! That's absurd.
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Sorry but this proves to be a valid safety concern and needs to be addressed immediately. Granted harnesses to me are useless in a lift but walking a ladder?! That's absurd.
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If you are talking a scissor lift or an AWP then you don't need a belt, but if you had recieved training on it you would know that. Walking a ladder is just a matter of time, you can do it a thousand times before disaster occurs.
JereNet, I pray that your luck holds out. The safety practices, unfortunately do not come from speculation about what could happen, but the direct result of accidents and determining how to prevent them in the future.
Put it this way, you live in the Midwest, do you know what to do in the instance of a tornado? It is the training that people get because it is known that tornados are a fact of life living in that region. However, even though there are faults, you probably don't prepare for earthquakes the same way residents of the Pacific coast do. The problem is that complacancy brings about carelessness as in your example of walking a ladder at height. Just because you haven't had anything happen to you doesn't preclude the chance of accident. In fact, the more you walk the ladder, the greater the risk of you having an accident from the simple fatigue of the materials.
Those of us who give advice on safety practices have lived to give the advice. I hope that you will take the time to learn to do things in a safe manner.
Put it this way, you live in the Midwest, do you know what to do in the instance of a tornado? It is the training that people get because it is known that tornados are a fact of life living in that region. However, even though there are faults, you probably don't prepare for earthquakes the same way residents of the Pacific coast do. The problem is that complacancy brings about carelessness as in your example of walking a ladder at height. Just because you haven't had anything happen to you doesn't preclude the chance of accident. In fact, the more you walk the ladder, the greater the risk of you having an accident from the simple fatigue of the materials.
Those of us who give advice on safety practices have lived to give the advice. I hope that you will take the time to learn to do things in a safe manner.
