Keeping the OT short, what will be the sound operator's reaction when the director blames them for a poor mix, singer(s) move mic positions during a performance, change volume not according to song, a singer has a bad day and level varies...
Andre
Wireless 24 wireless handhelds for
- Thread starterDavidIngraham
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Andre
I didn't say it isn't possible (people ran large scale wireless systems long before computer based frequency coordination existed), I just said it's not fun. Also, a fixed installation is extremely different in terms of coordination needs than a "touring" setup.
TimmyP1955
Well-Known Member
For 24 channels, I think you'd want Senny 300s, and would have an outlay of around $15,000. All to save each singer 1 minute of work at each rehearsal and show. This would not seem to be a reasonable expenditure.
Something to think about would be a large DIY snake. Sometimes I've seen guys use snakes, where its 8 channels on one end, and every 3-4 feet or so, there would be a female XLR. They just run them near the front of the stage, and they're done. Some go from the snake to a small 10' cable then the mic, but you can make it so that the xlr "drops" have they're own 10'. It may be a bit frustrating to coil. but I would rather wrap 1 fat 100' cable, than 24 50' cables. Which brings me to question 2. why why why do you just have 50 ' cables. Save your self some money, cut them in half, and re-end them.
Good luck!
Dont forget, more wireless mics, more missed cues. I've worked with 5 wl mics at a time, and singers would set them down, and get them mixed up, and then people would get mad at me!
Good luck!
Dont forget, more wireless mics, more missed cues. I've worked with 5 wl mics at a time, and singers would set them down, and get them mixed up, and then people would get mad at me!
I would stay wired but drop either a snake or loom at the side of the choir, then pull short cables to each location. Colored tape is a good suggestion, it makes it quicker if the kids are doing it. The other thing you can do is loom is row of the choir. Then all you have to do is lay the snake to the side, plug and lay a couple of row looms and let the singers plug in their mic.
2mojo2
Active Member
I do so agree!
In a well-constructed hall, you should not need to mic a chorus at all for sound reinforcement purposes.
Recording is another matter.
The physics of sound reinforcement is the same, by cordless or corded. If you have 20 channels open, your gain before feedback is doodley-squat.
I see these discussions with eight mics on the drum kit, plus the rest of the band.
I don't want eight mics total open on a live stage!
I'm sorry to say you're living in a fantasy world.
I currently run 24 channels of wireless in a touring show, ULXS, in two separate bands, with proper antenna distribution (key!)
Not really. If you spec the system acrooss multiple bands, you'll be fine. I run 24 channels of wirelees, doing about 50 shows a year in about a 300 mile radius, without a problem.
I do however, agree that without running things from FOH, you're headed into trouble.
Disagree... completely. For an ensemble that is singing as a choir, yes, they should be able to, but once they start moving around on stage, individual wireless is the right answer. I have 16 singers/dancers, with ISOMax headsets, plus a horn section that moves all over the stage.... couldn't do the show any other way
And only having 8 open channels is pretty absurd, I frequently have 30+ open and on mics at any given point in time. Some of the groups I do at festivals will have over 40 open at any given time.
No DIY snakes, unless you make them for a living. It's just not cost effective when you factor in parts/reliability/warranty/quality.
And if you're having trouble with 5 wirless mics, I'd love to have you sit in on one of my shows. You need to find yourself a good stage manager.
Not really. If you spec the system acrooss multiple bands, you'll be fine. I run 24 channels of wirelees, doing about 50 shows a year in about a 300 mile radius, without a problem.
I do however, agree that without running things from FOH, you're headed into trouble.
Disagree... completely. For an ensemble that is singing as a choir, yes, they should be able to, but once they start moving around on stage, individual wireless is the right answer. I have 16 singers/dancers, with ISOMax headsets, plus a horn section that moves all over the stage.... couldn't do the show any other way
And only having 8 open channels is pretty absurd, I frequently have 30+ open and on mics at any given point in time. Some of the groups I do at festivals will have over 40 open at any given time.
No DIY snakes, unless you make them for a living. It's just not cost effective when you factor in parts/reliability/warranty/quality.
And if you're having trouble with 5 wirless mics, I'd love to have you sit in on one of my shows. You need to find yourself a good stage manager.
I agree, if done for the right reasons.
You're pretty lucky if you didn't have to change one thing. Of course, lots of factors go into it including how much attenuation your venue provides, how much link margin you have compared to the noise/interference floor, etc. But still pretty lucky considering the number of cities within 300 mi of Madison.
Yeah, or at least having remote monitoring. I also like to carry around a TV band scanner (or handheld radio, like my Kenwood F6A), especially if I'm deck sound. It makes debugging a heck of a lot easier.
2mojo2
Active Member
Each time you double the number of open microphones, you lose 3dB of gain before feedback.
That is a physical fact that you ignore at your own peril.
http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/public/documents/webcontent/us_pro_mics_for_music_sound_ea.pdf
Anonymous067
Active Member
I work with some large vocal groups (12-18, individually mic'ed) and setup is easy. I pull the snake out. When they walk into the music area, they each pick up one (1) 25 foot XLR cable, and one (1) Shure Beta87a microphone. They all know their number, they walk up, plug it in, and DONE.
Tear down: they each unplug their OWN microphone and OWN cable, and wrap their own cable themselves. It takes 5 minutes. Honestly.
I see no justification for wireless in this setup at all, unless, as mentioned above, they're really (not just 2 steps), but really moving around the stage.
+1 for the rant above.
Tear down: they each unplug their OWN microphone and OWN cable, and wrap their own cable themselves. It takes 5 minutes. Honestly.
I see no justification for wireless in this setup at all, unless, as mentioned above, they're really (not just 2 steps), but really moving around the stage.
+1 for the rant above.
Yes and no. If they mics are all in exactly the same location, and you are in free space (with air, obviously), then yes. But the reality is some mics are farther from the speakers than others, and the physical design of the room will make some mics more prone to feedback than others. Also, if you EQ your system right to compensate for the room, then the odds of feedback go down even more.
I've run 25 omnidirectional mics, plus a pit, on stage before without feedback. It can be done, it just requires knowledge of the room and of how to pull it off.
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DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
It also requires a space where no part of the speaker is behind the performance area no amount of eq will help if the speakers horn is aimed at the microphone.
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Basically, the whole Gain Before Feedback issue comes down to PAG and NAG, the Potential Acoustic Gain and the Needed Acoustic Gain. The number of open microphones is a factor in the Potential Acoustic Gain as is the directionality of the microphones and speakers, the talker to microphone distance, the microphone to speaker distance, the desired levels at the listener, the speaker to listener relationship, the room and so on. One can often modify one factor to offset another but in the end the Potential Acoustic Gain of the overall system from talker to listener must exceed the Needed Acoustic Gain or feedback is inevitable.
Do you have a backup plan if you do run into problems? That is always my concern with running things on the ragged edge, what happens when a problem does arise? It's one thing to carry a couple of spare mics and cables and another to find yourself with too few frequencies and no other options.
I would also be wary of the competition aspect of this. If you have multiple groups all using wireless mics, wouldn't that greatly increase the potential of problems? I'm thinking something like another group testing their transmitters, even if just turning them on to verify batteries, or someone forgetting to turn off a transmitter. You may not time to troubleshoot such issues during the event and if it could affect your group's performance or the competition results it may not be worth the risk.
Thanks for clarifying this Nick as I think many people would perceive "without a problem" and having to do frequency coordination for each show as two very different things, particularly if you may have little opportunity to verify anything or make changes at the actual performance.
Do you have a backup plan if you do run into problems? That is always my concern with running things on the ragged edge, what happens when a problem does arise? It's one thing to carry a couple of spare mics and cables and another to find yourself with too few frequencies and no other options.
I would also be wary of the competition aspect of this. If you have multiple groups all using wireless mics, wouldn't that greatly increase the potential of problems? I'm thinking something like another group testing their transmitters, even if just turning them on to verify batteries, or someone forgetting to turn off a transmitter. You may not time to troubleshoot such issues during the event and if it could affect your group's performance or the competition results it may not be worth the risk.
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