Mixers/Consoles 5.1 Surround on the M7CL

[Jsamuels201]

Hi Everyone

My school just got a new hi res projector and when they were installing it our superintendent commented on the fact that the auditorium has a mono system and jokingly said that we should get surround for watching movies. I seriously doubt this will happen (though we may move to a stereo system) but it poses an interesting question. Is there a way to run 5.1 surround through the Yamaha M7CL?

The best method I was able to come up with was running the video out of qlab and through an audio interface (lets say a focusrite saffire pro 24) with each of the six surround channels (Left Front, Center Front, Right Front, Left Rear, Right Back, Subwoofer) running into an analog input on the M7CL (we have an AD card with 8 TRS inputs) and then routed directly to a matrix for each speaker.

If anyone has any better suggestions for how to do this please let me know. Good Luck!

 

[DaveySimps]

If has less to do with the board, and more to do with your playback device, available amps and speakers. The M7 has plenty of outs to use for routing, but you will need to have a true 5.1 mix coming from your playback device (DVD, Blue Ray player, etc.). Is QLab your playback device? You can take each of the outs of your playback device and route them each to a channel in the board, and assign them to their own Omni output, which feeds a dedicated amp channel and speaker location. Or, depending on the equipment you have, you could plug it directly into a speaker processor that feeds the amps. If your source content is only stereo, a 5.1 system does you no good. You also might want to route all of the channels to a single DCA to function as a master volume control. Once you have your desired balance between all 6 outputs, you might appreciate the option of having a single location to go to to make an overall level adjustment like when you have a full house after setting levels in an empty house.

Unless you are running first run movies or something, true 5.1 usually is not needed. You get into the issue of having the rights to show the movies in the first place, and who pays for those, etc.. A decent 5.1 system is costly and, my guess is, that a typical school could use the money better elsewhere. Certainly a good L,C,R system with subs and a few satellite / FX speakers could be converted to a 5.1 system the couple of times a year you would need it. And the LCR set up, or stereo setup would (most likely) be a better system for you on a day to day basis for most of your events.

~Dave

 

[Jsamuels201]

If has less to do with the board, and more to do with your playback device, available amps and speakers. The M7 has plenty of outs to use for routing, but you will need to have a true 5.1 mix coming from your playback device (DVD, Blue Ray player, etc.). Is QLab your playback device? You can take each of the outs of your playback device and route them each to a channel in the board, and assign them to their own Omni output, which feeds a dedicated amp channel and speaker location. Or, depending on the equipment you have, you could plug it directly into a speaker processor that feeds the amps. If your source content is only stereo, a 5.1 system does you no good.

~Dave

That's essentially the same system I was describing, Obviously the source content in this situation would be previously mixed in surround. I mentioned above that this was a theoretical question and in terms of practicality a LCR system with satellites would be ideal though it looks like for now we're sticking with our current mono system. My real question was is there a better way, some kind of card that isn't listed on the yamaha website for example, to run true 5.1 surround on the M7 other than what both you and I mentioned

 

[bri4827]

It's fairly simple to do with qlab and something like a Motu Ultralight. (If you use qlab anyway, this is a great unit to use for sound fx in multiple zones, multi tracks for musicals, or etc.) You can usually get away with just LCR and Subs in an environment that isn't THX certified, but throwing up a pair of speakers on sticks in the rear of the house couldn't hurt and for most small showings would be totally sufficient. Just watch out for those public showing rights. Check out Swank Motion Pictures to get copies with all the proper releases.

 

[DaveySimps]

That's essentially the same system I was describing, Obviously the source content in this situation would be previously mixed in surround. I mentioned above that this was a theoretical question and in terms of practicality a LCR system with satellites would be ideal though it looks like for now we're sticking with our current mono system. My real question was is there a better way, some kind of card that isn't listed on the yamaha website for example, to run true 5.1 surround on the M7 other than what both you and I mentioned

If it were me, and I was designing a solution, I would go direct from a good playback device into a speaker processor, taking the board out of the equation all together.

I am unaware of any YGDAI cards or anything that are available specifically for this type of setup.

~Dave

 

[cpf]

If it were me, and I was designing a solution, I would go direct from a good playback device into a speaker processor, taking the board out of the equation all together.

I am unaware of any YGDAI cards or anything that are available specifically for this type of setup.

~Dave

I agree. A direct connection between the source and the destination (D->A vs D->A->D->A[->D->A]) will give you the best rendition of the original mix with the fewest opportunities for things to go wrong, which is the target when you're dealing with films.

Of course, as you (the OP) spotted, a full n.1 system would really be a waste if it only got used twice a year. My place is already pre-wired for surround sound (Audia processors, cheapo consumer BD player), but if all you're going for is "surround sound" (not "Surround Sound™"), I think you could get away with a quick-and-dirty DIY solution, just make sure to walk through the seating with the movie playing to make sure it sounds good in all locations. Sometimes I've fallen prey to sciencey audio stuff like comb filtering in situations like this.

 

[Jsamuels201]

I agree with an external speaker processor being the best way to run true surround. If I ever actually have to set up a system in this room I'll keep it in mind.

 

[standup]

It is very doable. Our auditorium just got a 5.1 surround sound system and a M7CL. The DVD and CD players are set up so that for 5.1 automatically. Everything else is set up for LCR and we can send any other signal to the surround channels or subs if we choose to. The company that installs the speakers could probably program the board to do it for you (but it isn't too complex).

 

[museav]

I have seen many rooms with surround sound systems and very few with effective surround sound. The basic issue is that surround sound is mixed for a listener position and recreating that result for a large audience area means providing the same sound at every seat and not just the same relative levels but also the same relative timing and directional cues. You want every listener to have the same experience and doing that for a single channel can sometimes be challenging, two channel stereo even more challenging and three channel LCR yet another step. Now add in having to address surround channels and in many venues not designed for the purpose getting a surround sound experience that does not vary significantly throughout the listener area can be difficult and expensive. The point is that it is fairly simple to address 5.1 playback but is typically much more difficult to actually achieve effective surround sound without significant planning and investment.

Over the years I have been amazed by how many 'surround sound' systems never get used as intended and end up being run in 'party mode' with the same sound to all speakers or similar. People just seem to think that 'surround sound' means that every sound should be in multiple if not all channels and don't realize that it is really an environmental effect that often results in no sound in the surround channels. In fact, I think people would be surprised to find out just how much of the content in a 5.1 or 7.1 systems is often associated with the single center channel output.

 

[SHARYNF]

I totally agree with Brad, people are oversold on Surround sound systems, and especially implementations that are designed for living room listen71ing. It is hard to get folks to understand that in a Cinema the set up is totally different, with many more side speakers, and a LOT more expensive. People just think they are going to install 7.1 in their audience space, get a blu ray player with analog outs, and Presto full cinema. What they miss is that people sitting outside of the sweet spot are likely to get horrible sound


I guess another way of saying it is that providing an approximation of your cinema in your living room is one thing, approximating your living room in a cinema is totally different

Most of the consoles (back in the 03d/02r days had surround sound capabilities to CREATE the content, with the appropriate panning and delays etc
Sharyn

 

[fx120]

I recently did an install in a retirement community where we updated the AV facilities in their multi-use rooms and common areas. Part of the facility includes a 350 seat auditorium, which received a very nice 10,000 lumen 2K projector and a full 7.1 surround system. All the surround processing is done by a Denon A7100 decoder. The outputs of the Denon are fed into a Lectrosonics SPN-2412 matrix processor which combines other local (non surround) sources including several wired and wireless mics. When a surround source is selected, the ASPEN simply passes through the surround channels to the correct outputs, while non surround sources are only patched to the LCR buses and can be mixed in as desired.

Personally I wouldn't try and route all 6 (or 8) outputs of a surround processor or bluray player through your console, but instead come up with a secondary matrix processor that can do the job just as well and won't require keeping special routing settings that are likely to get messed up.