6x22 long barrel Leko Ellipsoidal 1K bulbs (FLV vs FEL)

[Cmckz]

I have been using 6 - 6x22 Long Barrel Ellipsoidal's to light up flags in the desert at burning man. I have always bought the FLV 1k's but couldnt find them last year so bought the FEL 1K's. The FEL's were so dim they barely lit the flags. Nothing has changed from one year to the next except the bulbs. Does anyone have any insight into why this is the case? All 6 fixtures had this problem. (the only thing to note is these are quite old fixtures but they are used only 7 nights for 12 ish hours a night. For them to fail this way all at the same time seems unlikely tho.)
Thanks....Cory

 

[derekleffew]

Never heard of an FLV. Did you mean maybe http://www.bulbconnection.com/ViewSIMItem/bcrw/simid/2844/item.html ? Ushio is I think the only one to make a 1200W "FEL".

It should be stated that, contrary to popular use, the Altman 360Q series is rated for 750W maximum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cmckz]

That's one of the problems I keep coming up against. People havent heard of the FLV. But it's clearly on the bulb and I've been buying them for a few years up til last year. It's also a 1k. not 12000w. These 6x22's had been using 1K's for as long as the 5 years I've been using them. The max is not stated on the fixture.
I wonder if FEL 1k's are all equal. Or if one is stronger than another. Cant remember at the moment which brand FEL I bought last year but perhaps that is an avenue to follow. Just wondering if anyone has experienced this or knows these bulbs well. Thanks for your response Derek.

 

[Les]

The max is not stated on the fixture.

It may not be anymore, but there was probably a sticker on the yoke at one point. Here's proof/details:
Altman Lighting - 360 Q Ellipsoidal

Of course, FELs are commonly used in the 6x22's, but you may experience shorter overall lifespan of the fixture including (but not limited to):
Burned reflectors and shutters
Sockets failing
Wiring degrading
Lenses cracking (more likely in 6x12, 6x9, 4.5x6.5)
Lack of UL listing

Sorry, I didn't mean for this to be a lecture. Just more of an informative thing. As far as FELs being created equal, I'm pretty sure they are more or less the same. It isn't a very complicated lamp, and they all have the same filament size/structure (within reason). Definitely not enough of a difference to be extremely noticeable. The changeover from the lamp you were previously using is probably the culprit; otherwise I would say "dirty lenses". Since it is common on all your instruments, I don't believe it is a problem with the lights. Dimmer output is not a failure mode of worn sockets (usually you would see flickering, unreliability, etc).

Have you confirmed the voltages being sent to your lights? I'll see if I can figure out what that FLV lamp is you're talking about.

 

[ship]

I have absolutely no notes on any existance of a FLV lamp as per a G-9.5 lamp socket. That said, it's only within the scope of ANSI lamps within catalogues I have - perhaps 90' or late 80's in GE catalogue as the earliest.

Like the idea of ensuring lenses are clean and lamp socket is good plus all wiring in perhaps problems in good 120v to the lamps - this as opposed to other specifications for the lamp. In a 6x22 fixture, perhaps a smaller fillament will make up for bulk wattage or something like that suspect perhaps a GLD or better Philips #6981P as more intense at 750w might do the bill in fixture clean and socket replaced if needed for end result.

Or did you mean a lamp really really not recommended such as a BWN

 

[Cmckz]

Thanks greatly for your knowledge. I'm privy to these fixtures for 7 days once a year so I'm not getting much education around them.
I know were using the same size generator that we've always used. So no changes there.
I can say that even tho bulbs are used only a short time, at least half are blown by the end of the festival. No bulb is touched with bare fingers so I cant blame it on that, perhaps it's the need for a 750w. But still, the shift in output from one year to the other with a 1K is too drastic to consider reducing to 750. I can almost guarantee myself a dim output that way. And since they have worked successfully on 1K's for so many years....Ah to find the FLV's I once bought. I just saw a site that has a pic of my exact fixture. They say its a late 80's early 90's altman 360Q. They also say a 750 FLK is best. I havent used FLK's. (FLV, FEL, FLK...what's the difference?) Thank you again for looking into this. So much appreciation for your knowledge.

 

[rochem]

While the unit is technically only rated for 750w, back when these were in popular use, the 1K lamp was standard in Altman 6x22s and no one even questioned it. In fact, from what I've been told, if you wanted a 6x22 with a (legal) 750w lamp, you'd actually have to ask the shop for it special, because all of the New York shops would send out 6x22s with 750w lamps by default. Of course, twenty years ago was a very different time than now in terms of liability and electrical codes, but the fact remains that the 750w lamp in a 6x22 was simply not bright enough at the throw distances they were using.

 

[josh88]

you wouldn't by chance happen to have a picture of the lamp that you had been using do you?

 

[techieman33]

You need to bench focus the lights after switching lamp styles, if the filament is in a different location you could be losing a lot of intensity due to poor lamp placement. Another thing that may have happened is that your reflectors are being damaged by the 1k lamps and your finally starting to see signs of that.

 

[jglodeklights]

You need to bench focus the lights after switching lamp styles, if the filament is in a different location you could be losing a lot of intensity due to poor lamp placement. Another thing that may have happened is that your reflectors are being damaged by the 1k lamps and your finally starting to see signs of that.

I agree this is also a likely culprit.

As to the FLV Lamp..... could it possibly be an FCV? The FCV is almost identical to the FEL, except it has a frosted finish on the bulb.

 

[Cmckz]

Once again, great information here. I'm still not sure about the whole FLV, FEL, FLK, and now a FCV choice. I am quite sure that I used FLV bulbs. But to purchase for this coming event, I'm still hoping for advice on which is the best to purchase. I will clean and bench focus each one of the bad boys before putting them to work this year. Perhaps even see about purchasing new reflectors if that's even possible for fixtures this old. Thank you all for your knowledge. Much appreciated.

 

[BobHealey]

Despite being lower wattage, GLD with a proper bench focus and clean optics will probably give similar light output. I relampped a pair of 6x22's this fall with the long life version, and everyone complained the fixtures were too bright. They're definitely brighter than the 6x16s I've got lampped with FEL.

 

[Cmckz]

wow, a GLD. So now I have to wonder, do I buy, FEL, FLK, FCV or GLD. The GLD has a more robust looking filament but only seems to come in 750w. Can people pipe in on any insight into these choices.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Well, it's hard to say how old those Altman's are, but somewhere along the line Altman re-designed the reflector for the 360Q to optimize it for the current generation of high output 575 and 750 watt lamps. Yours look like the brown paint version so I'm GUESSING they have the older reflector in them. I would assume that a modern lamp coupled with the newer designed reflector, properly benched, with clean optics, could outshoot a FEL.

The thing about an FEL is that while it is 1K in wattage it is, as halogen technology goes, an old, inefficient design. Wattage alone is not always an indicator of better output. The FEL has a big honking filament, such a large filament is hard to optimize is the focal point of a reflector. Thus a lower wattage lamp with a better designed filament can equal a better final output.

Ok, you don't know what lamp to get. Well these are getting about 80 hours of use, so no need for a long life lamp. Seeing as we can't find this FLV lamp, and your FEL is too dim, you might just have to buy a few 750 watt lamps and see which works best.

The 6x22 is still manufactured by Altman so replacement parts are not terribly hard to get.

 

[derekleffew]

...The GLD has a more robust looking filament but only seems to come in 750w. ...

Each three-letter ANSI lamp code refers to only one wattage, output, color temperature, and life. Some very minor performance variations among manufacturers.

Code, Watts, Volts, Life, Lumens
JCV120V-1200WCH, 1200, 120, 200, 33000*
FEL, 1000, 120, 300, 27500
FCV, 1000, 120, 300, 26500**
GLD, 750, 115, 300, 19000
EHF, 750, 120, 300, 20400

*Referenced in post#2.
**The inside frosted FCV will not yield desirable results in a fixture such as an ERS that requires a point source.

... I would assume that a modern lamp coupled with the newer designed reflector, properly benched, with clean optics, could outshoot a FEL.

The thing about an FEL is that while it is 1K in wattage it is, as halogen technology goes, an old, inefficient design. Wattage alone is not always an indicator of better output. The FEL has a big honking filament, such a large filament is hard to optimize is the focal point of a reflector. Thus a lower wattage lamp with a better designed filament can equal a better final output. ...

All true statements, but I suspect the FEL, inefficient as it is, will still win as the brightest available lamp (short of this alleged, illusive GLV). From http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/20325-lamping-question-varied-inventory.html :

I have a number of the same Colortrans (5/50 and 213s) and the Strand fixtures that you refer to in my inventory. I typically use the GLC lamp in them. I did a blind side by side test on four identical fixtures using four different lamps including the FEL and GLC and much to my surprise the fixture fitted with the FEL was picked by the judges as the fixture with the most "punch' - the GLC was a close second. ...

Now it's possible that, in fixture with a reflector designed for it, the GLD can be brighter than an FEL. This would be a reflector designed in the last ten years, and I think includes the "super reflector" for the Altman 360Q, part# 97-0125.

... They also say a 750 FLK is best. ...

Well then, "they" are misinformed at best. There is no such thing as a "750 FLK". The FLK, per its ANSI code, is a 575 watt only lamp. Therefore, I'd be suspicious of ALL information on that particular site.

...(FLV, FEL, FLK...what's the difference?)

The FEL family (includes EHG, EHD, etc.) was developed in the mid 1970s. The FLK/HX600 (late '80s) was the second generation, with slightly improved filament geometry, but suffers premature failure due to fragility. The GLA, GLD, GLx family (late '90s/early 2000s) is the third and current generation, "borrowing" its filament geometry from the HPL Source Four lamp (four filament segments; Note: "HPL" is NOT an ANSI code).
The ultimate performance goal of any incandescent stage lamp is to get the most tungsten material mass in the least amount of space, approaching the "theoretical point source" for optimum efficiency.

FEL on the left, GLC on the right:

 

[ship]

Very impressed with the tech info this website has gotten to on lamps. I am with others - new reflector, new lamp and probably new sockets as also needed no doubt...

To further but better explain this concept of mind's eye verses intensity question one would need to dig further into the science of light. If just a single candle in the room, will the eyes adjust to it? Yes... might be dim but if the only the candle in the room, can be sufficient.

Avoiding the second 25w incandescent lamp in the room color temperature part of the concept for now in sticking with output concept.

Efficient 750w lamp with new reflector as probably necessary by now, (Smaller filament in making for more point source light out of it) and new socket as with wiring etc in really good condition verses 1Kw lamp with old lamp and socket etc. Output... wasn't it like 20 years ago that the HX-600 at 575w/115v was toughted to do this? Go 750w in doing it and probably assuming the above as compared to what a 1Kw lamp was doing to the fixture over the years.

Main concept is though if all the fixtures in the show are even lit with 575w lamps, it will be bright. With 750w lamps brighter. As with theater in going higher wattage, what amout of foot candles on stage do you need in perhaps adding another fixture or in general the customer has no real foot candle on stage memory and only notices whats' brighter or not well lit. Go with GLD for all and even your mind's eye and even if you don't replace reflectors, you won't note a difference I suspect. You have no basis of light level to compare with and your eyes adjust. Might even be fooled to think it brighter due to color temperature improvement of the new lamps over overall output.

Change all the lamps, if possible also the reflectors in bulk. Look seriously at the lamps removed for what sockets need replacement (what a lamp in pins shows is what the socket is) and in general at the wiring. Go GLD or Philips #6981P as used on High End Systems' Color Command Units. What level of replacement you do will play a factor but in the end you will possibly see your lighting levels improved. Very possible you will be brighter this year.

 

[Cmckz]

Ok, Now I have to ask, Were using a mega huge generator for our lights. Could using a 220v bulb outshine the 120v. And how would using a 220v 1K bulb do in this fixture? I'm wondering if that's what has happened in the brightness issue. Perhaps I didnt realize we had been using 220v bulbs and I just assumed and bought the 120v.

 

[Les]

Feeding a 220v 1K lamp 115v would be dimmer than a 115v 1k lamp running at 115v. I suspect that there wouldn't be any appreciable difference in brightness in both the lamps if running at their designed voltages.

A 220v 1k lamp would be just as damaging to the fixture, if not worse (I'm not sure about temperature differences, etc).

 

[Chris15]

A 220v lamp at 115v is close enough to running at half it's rated voltage...
Lumen output will be just over 10% of the rated output of the lamp.

A more likely case is a transition from a 115v lamp to a 120v lamp...

 

[JChenault]

Thanks greatly for your knowledge. I'm privy to these fixtures for 7 days once a year so I'm not getting much education around them.
I know were using the same size generator that we've always used. So no changes there.
I can say that even tho bulbs are used only a short time, at least half are blown by the end of the festival.

I would like to propose a different line of reasoning. The lamps are on 84hours a year. Half of them burn out each year. If you had better lamp life this year ( when things were dim) I suggest that the issue may be that in prior years you were running at more than 120 volts. This would explain the short lamp life and higher output in prior years, and the dim output at lower voltage

Of course this scenario is based on the assumption that you did not burn out half your lamps his year. Can you clarify?