A few quick questions about lighting

[MaesonB]

Hey everyone, I am lighting designer for my high schools theatre program, I have a few technical questions, as I am not extremely experianced.
We run a ETC 48/96 console with a ETC SR48 dimmer rack.
First question, we have 2 altman 1000q followspots, and I was curious if these could be used with the dimmers, and be programmed into cues to have perfect fades in/out. (Aware not much of a fade when power is cut). Also, for curiosity's sake - can these be dimmed? (I know this defeats the purpose, just curious). Also, could a huge gobo be placed in the gel frames (again not practical, just me being curious).

Next, what would be a affordable way to run moving lights, if we were to buy a few? I dont know if our board is compatible at all, or if we would require a whole new system. Thanks for any imput on this.Next, maintenece for the instruments - is this essential? I have found a few guides, and just dont know how frequently this is required. Is it important to clean reflectors/lenses frequently? We have s4's, a few strand SL's, and a abundance of Altman 36q's.Is it nessecary for fresnels/cyc baselights? We have no LED fixtures, by the way. Is it practical to use elipsoidels with breakup gobos as offstage trees? Is the angle going to match that of a fresnel, with a 16° lens? Thanks for all the support I expect will come, and thanks for the great community.

 

[Les]

Hey everyone, I am lighting designer for my high schools theatre program, I have a few technical questions, as I am not extremely experianced.
We run a ETC 48/96 console with a ETC SR48 dimmer rack.
First question, we have 2 altman 1000q followspots, and I was curious if these could be used with the dimmers, and be programmed into cues to have perfect fades in/out. (Aware not much of a fade when power is cut). Also, for curiosity's sake - can these be dimmed? (I know this defeats the purpose, just curious). Also, could a huge gobo be placed in the gel frames (again not practical, just me being curious).

Next, what would be a affordable way to run moving lights, if we were to buy a few?

1000Q on dimmers:

Short answer, no. Not without modifying the fixture. These spots contain two fans (one squirrel cage blower and one muffin fan) which will [best case] not operate correctly, [worse case] burn up, when placed on a dimmer.

1000Q gobos:

No dice. The gels are not in the correct orientation optically to produce a projection. You would have to somehow shove a gobo near the iris in order to get a projection.

Moving lights:

On your console, while you can control moving lights, it is a headache. I recommend buying an Enttec Pro USB-DMX interface and downloading your favorite free moving light software (MagicQ is one of the more popular examples) on to a laptop, and going to town -- with the ML's being independent of the Express. Note that the Enttec interface I mentioned is over $100. You can buy cheaper versions, but there are limits. MagicQ sells a basic dongle for around $16 but you can only use it for 5 hours at a time before you are forced to restart the program.

 

[MaesonB]

Moving lights:

On your console, while you can control moving lights, it is a headache. I recommend buying an Enttec Pro USB-DMX interface and downloading your favorite free moving light software (MagicQ is one of the more popular examples) on to a laptop, and going to town -- with the ML's being independent of the Express. Note that the Enttec interface I mentioned is over $100. You can buy cheaper versions, but there are limits. MagicQ sells a basic dongle for around $16 but you can only use it for 5 hours at a time before you are forced to restart the program.

Is the software just clunky in the ETC express? Does it have the correct connections for dmx? Would we just have to run the cable from the board/ dimmer rack? And thanks for the ML advice and the awnsers to the other questions.

 

[Les]

Yes - the software in the Express is pretty clunky. Added to the fact that there isn't really much of a control surface for moving lights (such as encoders). Also, your console would fill up real fast when adding fixtures needing 20 channels each. It was really designed with moving lights as an afterthought, since they weren't very popular with ETC's target market at that time.

The Express outputs DMX - that's how your dimmers are controlled. However, they don't need to be in the equation at all for controlling moving lights. Usually a second DMX out from universe two (513-1024) will suffice. I can't remember if your board has more than one output. If your dimmer rack has a DMX out, you could daisy-chain off that as well.

 

[MaesonB]

Yes - the software in the Express is pretty clunky. Added to the fact that there isn't really much of a control surface for moving lights (such as encoders). Also, your console would fill up real fast when adding fixtures needing 20 channels each. It was really designed with moving lights as an afterthought, since they weren't very popular with ETC's target market at that time.

The Express outputs DMX - that's how your dimmers are controlled. However, they don't need to be in the equation at all for controlling moving lights. Usually a second DMX out from universe two (513-1024) will suffice. I can't remember if your board has more than one output. If your dimmer rack has a DMX out, you could daisy-chain off that as well.

If I was to daisy chain off of the rack, would I have to run dmx to the board as well? Or would it be easier for me to just use a laptop/dongle setup

 

[JD]

I have actually run 1000Q spots off dimmers, and Les's concerns are correct. A fast fade up or fade down is not the problem, it's if someone leaves them somewhere in between. That might damage the motors. In a fixed commercial plot with one trained board operator runnng designed cues, that can work. But a school tends to be an open environment and there is too much of a chance of the spots being parked at a bad setting.
For the occasional mover, a PC based software solution is the way to go. Movers eat channels alive! Add to that, software is cheap or free, and the USB dongle is not a major purchase.

 

[Les]

If I was to daisy chain off of the rack, would I have to run dmx to the board as well? Or would it be easier for me to just use a laptop/dongle setup

No, you can have multiple devices within a run (the dimmers acting as a device). You'd just need to address your first fixture above 48 as that is the address of your highest dimmer. I'd recommend starting at a round number for simplicity's sake. [This is all assuming that your rack has a DMX output]. The benefit is that the DMX run is already there, but the drawback is that you now have to control everything from the Express, which doesn't have many free channels for moving lights to begin with. The laptop/dongle setup takes more work in running a DMX line, but after that life will be easier.

 

[JChenault]

Re fading the light smoothly.

I believe that one of your color bomerangs is actually a douser ( IE a solid piece of metal ). You can do a fade by slowly moving the douser into the beam. This method is much better than switching the lamp on and off. First it can be faded over time. Second switching on the power puts a shock n the lamp and makes it more likely for the lamp to fail.

 

[microstar]

No, you can have multiple devices within a run (the dimmers acting as a device). You'd just need to address your first fixture above 48 as that is the address of your highest dimmer. I'd recommend starting at a round number for simplicity's sake. [This is all assuming that your rack has a DMX output]. The benefit is that the DMX run is already there, but the drawback is that you now have to control everything from the Express, which doesn't have many free channels for moving lights to begin with. The laptop/dongle setup takes more work in running a DMX line, but after that life will be easier.

If it's an SR48 rack he has the possibility of 96 dimmers. Also, the Express 48/96 can access 192 channels thru software, so doubt he will run out of channels for a few simple moving light fixtures.

 

[Les]

If it's an SR48 rack he has the possibility of 96 dimmers. Also, the Express 48/96 can access 192 channels thru software, so doubt he will run out of channels for a few simple moving light fixtures.

Thanks for the note about the SR48 rack. I disagree that we shouldn't at least warn about channel count. A "simple moving light" can use upwards of 20 channels. Four of them and you're maxed out. That however is secondary to the fact that there are much better solutions out there such as using up-to-date software on a PC. Even better; you get to learn how moving lights actually interface in today's world.

I dont know if our board is compatible at all, or if we would require a whole new system. Thanks for any imput on this.Next, maintenece for the instruments - is this essential? I have found a few guides, and just dont know how frequently this is required. Is it important to clean reflectors/lenses frequently? We have s4's, a few strand SL's, and a abundance of Altman 36q's.Is it nessecary for fresnels/cyc baselights? We have no LED fixtures, by the way. Is it practical to use elipsoidels with breakup gobos as offstage trees? Is the angle going to match that of a fresnel, with a 16° lens? Thanks for all the support I expect will come, and thanks for the great community.

I'm going to stand behind my assessment that your board is compatible, but it will be like streaming videos using dial-up internet. Oh God - you probably don't get that reference. I am old.

Maintenance on moving lights is crucial. Lamps can cost over $150 and of course you will need those. Since the fixtures are essentially robotics, they will occasionally need service. Belts wear out, motors go bad, sensors get dirty. Usually it is best to send them out for this, which costs money. Moving light ownership is a lot like car ownership. Only part of the cost is the initial purchase.

On maintaining conventional lights - in a high school, about a once-per year basic cleaning is good. Just a dusting and a wipe of the lens. Every few years you may want to open the fixture and clean the reflector with a bit of alcohol. A lot of this depends on the environment, so if something seems dirty, clean it. Cleaning schedules are the same across all instrument types (except moving lights and LEDs, which may need more attention more often).

Ellipsoidals with breakups from off stage? Sure! There's no right or wrong here. It depends on the look you're after. If it looks good, use it. But I can't see your space from here so let yourself be the judge of that. As far as a lens question -- not sure I follow, but if you're asking if a 16° ellipsoidal's beam will match that of a fresnel, it wouldn't. A fresnel's beam is somewhere around 70° at wide flood if I'm not mistaken.

 

[MaesonB]

If it's an SR48 rack he has the possibility of 96 dimmers. Also, the Express 48/96 can access 192 channels thru software, so doubt he will run out of channels for a few simple moving light fixtures.

To awnser this to the best of my ability, we do have 96 usable channels(is this dimmer doubleing?) And our software is currently set up with access to all 192 channels. (If only we had the dimmers...)

 

[MaesonB]

Thanks for the note about the SR48 rack. I disagree that we shouldn't at least warn about channel count. A "simple moving light" can use upwards of 20 channels. Four of them and you're maxed out. That however is secondary to the fact that there are much better solutions out there such as using up-to-date software on a PC. Even better; you get to learn how moving lights actually interface in today's world.



I'm going to stand behind my assessment that your board is compatible, but it will be like streaming videos using dial-up internet. Oh God - you probably don't get that reference. I am old.

Maintenance on moving lights is crucial. Lamps can cost over $150 and of course you will need those. Since the fixtures are essentially robotics, they will occasionally need service. Belts wear out, motors go bad, sensors get dirty. Usually it is best to send them out for this, which costs money. Moving light ownership is a lot like car ownership. Only part of the cost is the initial purchase.

On maintaining conventional lights - in a high school, about a once-per year basic cleaning is good. Just a dusting and a wipe of the lens. Every few years you may want to open the fixture and clean the reflector with a bit of alcohol. A lot of this depends on the environment, so if something seems dirty, clean it. Cleaning schedules are the same across all instrument types (except moving lights and LEDs, which may need more attention more often).

Ellipsoidals with breakups from off stage? Sure! There's no right or wrong here. It depends on the look you're after. If it looks good, use it. But I can't see your space from here so let yourself be the judge of that. As far as a lens question -- not sure I follow, but if you're asking if a 16° ellipsoidal's beam will match that of a fresnel, it wouldn't. A fresnel's beam is somewhere around 70° at wide flood if I'm not mistaken.

Thank you so much for you help, all of my questions have been answered.

 

[Philternaut]

Might chime in to mention that on those ETC Express boards, you can set your dimmer profiles to be "full at 1%" (dimmer profile #6): Patch mode > Select Dimmer > Profile (on the first or second page of softkey options) > Choose the "full at 1%" profile. While still not ideal, you can use that to control the spotlights on dimmers via cues & submasters without as much risk of a brownout.

As for moving lights and all… yeah. Exactly what everyone else said. I TD for a high school drama program with the 48/96 (great boards all told!). Rosco I-Cues are manageable with Focus Points, but even then it's kinda from a by-gone age.

 

[microstar]

Thanks for the note about the SR48 rack. I disagree that we shouldn't at least warn about channel count. A "simple moving light" can use upwards of 20 channels. Four of them and you're maxed out. That however is secondary to the fact that there are much better solutions out there such as using up-to-date software on a PC. Even better; you get to learn how moving lights actually interface in today's world.

I'm still stuck in the '90's, so to me a "simple moving light" is an HES Trackspot with 7 channels!!
All in one's frame of reference I guess.

 

[Les]

@microstar - Good times! Indeed something like the Trackspot would be more manageable. They're cheap nowadays! But to check myself, I looked up the Elation Design Spot 575e... I think it was somewhere around 23 channels!

@MaesonB - Dimmer doubling happens at the fixtures, not the rack. There would be a funky looking splitter connecting two fixtures to one receptacle, yet still have the option for independent control. Your rack likely has 48 dimmer modules with two dimmers per module, but that is not dimmer doubling.

You could for sure populate the rest of the channels with devices such as gobo rotators, color scrollers, etc (using DMX as outlined above). You could even get a couple of moving lights on there, but also as outlined above, you could run in to multiple headaches that way. By contrast, simple devices such as rotators and scrollers are extremely easy to use on the Express. I would honestly recommend exploring that route before investing in moving lights. This is known around here as The Gafftaper Method.

 

[CraigV]

Definitely no go on the gobo. I attempted to put a breakup in a 1000Q and it just about melted a hole through the gobo, and I only had it in there for about 2 seconds. Almost set the smoke alarm off too.

 

[petercav17]

Definitely no go on the gobo. I attempted to put a breakup in a 1000Q and it just about melted a hole through the gobo, and I only had it in there for about 2 seconds. Almost set the smoke alarm off too.

I have successfully projected a gobo with an Altman Comet. I had to hold the gobo the whole time, completely still at the focal point, but it did work. Granted, most of the image got cut off but it was still funny to confuse my ME friend.