A sad state of theatre planning...
- Thread starterBillConnerFASTC
- Start date
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Because medicine is considered serious and performing arts is not. Further the management and employees of a hospital are clear, articulate, specific, and adamant about their needs. The same people representing the performing arts in a high school are often not even trained or knowledgeable of many of the aspects of theatre planning and design, don't know what they want, and are easily persuaded or intimidated to settle for less. I wish drama teachers earned and received the same respect a surgeon does.
Les
Well-Known Member
I wish a hard-working person in any noble profession did.
RickR
Well-Known Member
I place drama teachers in a category that includes doctors, clergy and architects. They are all supposed to know everything there is to know about their very broad field. Most of them have the added goal of being both friend and authority to their 'clients' without ever lashing out at stupidity, willful ignorance or meanness.
EdSavoie
Well-Known Member
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
"Parity" always confounds me, especially when building a new second HS in a district and existing one is many years old. Forced to match the shortcomings it seems. Once I strongly recommended an in house mix location. Was not allowed because existing auditorium didn't have one. Well, true, one was not built in but at some point the faculty moved the sound control to middle of house, albeit a little make shift. Admin would still not allow a proper in house mix or even conduit to make the inevitable easier and safer.
@BillConnerFASTC Posting in support. By their rationale, cars would still have cranks, if not reins, whips and horses plus phones would still be party lines mounted on walls at average head height.
SEASON'S BEST!!!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
Jay Ashworth
Well-Known Member
Find the contact information for every construction and design contractor trade paper in the US, and query them for an article.
The title is that piece, BTW, is "Get It Right The First Time: Building a Usable Theatre is Hard and Expensive".
[ If you need an editor, let me know ]
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Find the contact information for every construction and design contractor trade paper in the US, and query them for an article.
The title is that piece, BTW, is "Get It Right The First Time: Building a Usable Theatre is Hard and Expensive".
[ If you need an editor, let me know ]
I don't think disseminating "good design" to planners and builders will by itself work. Too often I here "we did that (insert any stupid design or poor planning choice) on the last one and no one complained". So those planners and builders don't accept they need to improve. I think I mentioned I just got that same line form a mechanical engineer, went to one of the "many auditoriums" done his way and with "no complaints" and his system produces a loud roaring background noise. The auditorium manager honestly didn't know it didn't have to be that way.
The users need to push their way into the planning process, and become clearer, more articulate, and more demanding. And when they have a facility with flaws, artfully complain and provide clear and constructive criticism. That's sort of kick the darn door in without getting fired. Which is where a consultant come in, one who is paid and does not have to worry how much they are liked or if they will be invited back, thus not a local vendor who wants to be invited back again and again.
A group of our Dept. of Theater tech folks went thru our soon-to-open space, about a year ago, took photos, made notes etc... of the numerous installation errors and design flaws, wrote it all up, sent it up thru channels, and were told by the head of our facilities dept. that they were not allowed in the building and to stay out. No effort the address the issue we are going to deal with, just stay out and shut up.
Really frustrating experience.
@SteveB Why do you suppose it's like that? Unfortunately this is not an isolated experience. Why is it so difficult to turn things around once "they" get started down the wrong path?
SEASON'S BEST!!!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Once contracts for construction are awarded, it becomes extremely costly to make changes. Sort of like building a car from spare parts - about 5 times the cost on a new car lot.
You have to be involved before serious design has begun or it's too late. It frustrating when I get involved late. I can fix systems but often not basic planning.
So SteveB I feel for you but don't have much help. Over time you can correct some flaws. The best thing you can do is help others avoid this. You're practically in a better position to help than I am.
You have to be involved before serious design has begun or it's too late. It frustrating when I get involved late. I can fix systems but often not basic planning.
So SteveB I feel for you but don't have much help. Over time you can correct some flaws. The best thing you can do is help others avoid this. You're practically in a better position to help than I am.
For our new facility, there were a number of the end users involved in the design process early on, all technical folks, all able to read plans. I think that was part of the issue, the consultants were dealing well with folks that could actually read and understand. Thus we asked for many changes and i think all those changes started to cost the consultants and architects in time they had not planned for. Thus our top bosses, the CUNY planning office pulled the plug on our participation at the 75% planning point and we we no longer involved and still are not. It’s been an 8 year process, the building might open this month and I believe those delays make the supervisors look pretty stupid to THEIR bosses, thus the driving force right now is “dont fix anything, just get the building open”.
@SteveB @BillConnerFASTC We had a new theatre built from the ground up in our area a few years ago. The elevation of the 2nd space was several feet higher than the deck of the main space. The three loading docks were all at the height of the main stage. There was a long ramp between the deck level of the main space and the elevated deck level of the 2nd space. Of course the architects made sure they put two level resting points for folks in wheelchairs. None of the 'iron ring' crowd thought to check if the scissor lift would be able to negotiate the ramps between the two spaces without bottoming out as it transitioned from the ramps to the flat resting areas. Fortunately a couple of us were able to politely hammer this into their heads in time for the two level sections to become three. Sometimes you just HAVE to keep hammering away.
SEASON'S BEST!!!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
Jay Ashworth
Well-Known Member
Alas, there really is only *one* solution to that sort of situation.
Please forgive me my language, everyone.
"F@$k you; we quit."
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BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
That's fine if you have no responsibilities, family, and so on. The realities of life make that not possible for most of us.
Too late to quit, I'm only a few short years till retirement. I'll just tell them "Oh Well, sorry I can'that' too bad
So more fun from the Brooklyn Follies
We got confirmation today that for some reason, the architect neglected a key design feature in 2 of the 3 lighting/audio/control booths. namely countertops (2) for the lighting and audio consoles. They designed a nice counter/tabletop unit for the main theater space, but not these 2 other booths. Lot's of associated connection points below where these countertops will reside, track lighting above, but no actual countertops. Easy enough to remedy except the architect and consultant, who remain nameless only due to my own high standards of professionalism, have done their walk thru and punch list and somehow missed this. Next week I am supposed to unpack and check the operation of the 2 remaining Ion consoles, with Barbizon, but have no place to actually place these consoles.
Then the overly large lobby, where they were supposed to install near ceiling level on the overlooking balcony, some horizontal lighting positions so as to potentially light an event in the lobby. It was talked about and they installed 6 - 208v 30A twist receptacles, as well as pass-thru DMX ports for the shoe-box dimmers. The DMX send location is on a wall on the lobby first level with no electrical outlet anywhere near the DMX port, not sure how I'm supposed to power up the console, sending data to non-existent shoe-box dimmers, to lighting equipment they didn't buy, on positions they didn't install. Power and DMX cabling is good to go though.
First show opens in 6 weeks, no certificate of occupancy.
You have to be fuc*ing kidding, frustration level just peaked, yet again.
We got confirmation today that for some reason, the architect neglected a key design feature in 2 of the 3 lighting/audio/control booths. namely countertops (2) for the lighting and audio consoles. They designed a nice counter/tabletop unit for the main theater space, but not these 2 other booths. Lot's of associated connection points below where these countertops will reside, track lighting above, but no actual countertops. Easy enough to remedy except the architect and consultant, who remain nameless only due to my own high standards of professionalism, have done their walk thru and punch list and somehow missed this. Next week I am supposed to unpack and check the operation of the 2 remaining Ion consoles, with Barbizon, but have no place to actually place these consoles.
Then the overly large lobby, where they were supposed to install near ceiling level on the overlooking balcony, some horizontal lighting positions so as to potentially light an event in the lobby. It was talked about and they installed 6 - 208v 30A twist receptacles, as well as pass-thru DMX ports for the shoe-box dimmers. The DMX send location is on a wall on the lobby first level with no electrical outlet anywhere near the DMX port, not sure how I'm supposed to power up the console, sending data to non-existent shoe-box dimmers, to lighting equipment they didn't buy, on positions they didn't install. Power and DMX cabling is good to go though.
First show opens in 6 weeks, no certificate of occupancy.
You have to be fuc*ing kidding, frustration level just peaked, yet again.
You wouldn't believe how often CO's or TCO's are awarded 2 or 3 days before a sold out grand opening event.
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