audience mic

[gbirdsall]

hi guys i work in a smaller 250 seat comedy club and the boss wants to start micing the audience to give the impression of louder laughs and thus a seemingly better show.

we are working with the behringer x2442 usb board, is there an economical and decent mic that is easy to hide that would fit my purpose?

thanks

-Garrett

 

[David Ashton]

Any cheap omnidirectional mic should work fine, it's not as if you need high quality reproduction, just ambience.

 

[DrPinto]

You could also use a couple of shotgun mics pointed toward the house to pick up the audience's reactions.

IMHO, I don't think it's such a great idea. If you were recording the house sounds, that's one thing, but to mic the house and send it through the main PA... you're just asking for feedback.

 

[Jsamuels201]

IMHO, I don't think it's such a great idea. If you were recording the house sounds, that's one thing, but to mic the house and send it through the main PA... you're just asking for feedback.

Also the audience isn't that stupid, they'll know how funny the show is regardless of whether or not you send their laughter back thru the system.

 

[gbirdsall]

i am aware that this isnt the best of ideas to create the feel but the boss wants it done and i need to find a way to do it right, feed back shouldn't be a major issue, the speakers are wall hung about 10 feet off the ground and the mics will be at a minimum level just to get the reproduction of the laugh

 

[museav]

i am aware that this isnt the best of ideas to create the feel but the boss wants it done and i need to find a way to do it right, feed back shouldn't be a major issue, the speakers are wall hung about 10 feet off the ground and the mics will be at a minimum level just to get the reproduction of the laugh

If the mics are in the coverage of the sound system then feedback may be an issue. Also consider that the mics and system won't differentiate laughter from coughs, sneezes, etc. or from sound from the stage or sound system, the system will simply apply the same gain to anything the mics pick up. Finally, if somebody next to you coughs and that sound travels some distance to the ambient mic(s), is sent through the system and then travels some distance from the speakers back to you, is that combined path length from the person to mic and then the speaker the listeners in that area potentially sufficient to introduce enough delay for that sound to be perceived as distinct from the original event?

 

[FACTplayers]

i am aware that this isnt the best of ideas to create the feel but the boss wants it done and i need to find a way to do it right, feed back shouldn't be a major issue, the speakers are wall hung about 10 feet off the ground and the mics will be at a minimum level just to get the reproduction of the laugh

One of the shows I ran sound for I had some actors who came off stage and interacted with the audience. It was a small part of the show and we don't have a lot of lavalieres so giving them a dedicated mic was out; our solution was to place some choir mics hanging from the ceiling to pick up the actor's comments. I knew right where they would be so it wasn't like I was trying to pick up the entire seating area. Long story short, I had instant feedback and I wasn't able to use the mics.

If I remember correctly, there was some study awhile ago that found sound waves travel at 6" off of the floor, you could try putting a mic in front of the audience, but under the speakers with a shield of sorts to block the amplified sound from the speakers from entering the mics. I can't say off hand if it will work, but it's worth a shot.

 

[museav]

If I remember correctly, there was some study awhile ago that found sound waves travel at 6" off of the floor, you could try putting a mic in front of the audience, but under the speakers with a shield of sorts to block the amplified sound from the speakers from entering the mics. I can't say off hand if it will work, but it's worth a shot.

Directional microphones, barriers, etc, may indeed help in terms of getting better gain before feedback, but do you have a reference to that study because on the surface that makes no sense?

On a different note, has the Owner thought about the reaction of the audience and performers if they find out that you are doing this? I can see performers feeling that you have no faith in them while audience members might feel both misled and that you were delivering a product that you believed could not stand on its own merit. It just seems easy to backfire and instead of making the performances seem funnier, making it appear that you don't trust them to be funny enough on their own.

 

[FACTplayers]

Directional microphones, barriers, etc, may indeed help in terms of getting better gain before feedback, but do you have a reference to that study because on the surface that makes no sense?

Maybe I phrased it wrong... Let me try again: It does make sense because when a sine wave is emanated from a source that wave doesn't just travel in a linear path forever and always; that wave has to spread, otherwise a speaker would only work if you are sitting directly in front of it. Yes, I realize that is where you get the best sound, but if you are 20' in front and 20' to the left of a speaker you will still be able to hear very well.

Placing a mic near the floor is the same principle. While you won't pick up the sound wave at it's prime, you should pick up the majority of the sound. This is not ideal to mic an actor, but for picking up audience noise it will work given the mic is a decent distance away from feet. You don't want to be picking up shuffling of feet (which is much quieter than clapping and occurs less frequently).

I'll try to find where I read this, but it was a few years ago. Try it out with your own ears: turn your stereo on and lie on the floor. You will be able to hear the music without a problem.

 

[FMEng]

What you might be driving at is the principal behind the pressure zone mic (PZM), also known a boundary microphone. PZMs shine because they lack the comb filtering cause by reflections off of nearby surfaces, like the floor. PZMs would do a nice job of picking up the audience. However, placement on the floor isn't going to make them any less susceptible to feedback than any other mic. There is no acoustic magic that'll do that.

There are cardioid PZMs that would help by giving it some rear-rejection. The problem with a PZM in the house is that it might get stepped on.

In any case, you want a directional mic with a good pattern across a wide range of frequencies. hypercardioid would put a null toward the speakers. Most mics, except physically large ones, like long shotguns and dual diaphragm side-address, lose their directional pattern at low frequencies, so use a high-pass filter, with a pretty high roll off point.

 

[museav]

Maybe I phrased it wrong... Let me try again: It does make sense because when a sine wave is emanated from a source that wave doesn't just travel in a linear path forever and always; that wave has to spread, otherwise a speaker would only work if you are sitting directly in front of it. Yes, I realize that is where you get the best sound, but if you are 20' in front and 20' to the left of a speaker you will still be able to hear very well.

Placing a mic near the floor is the same principle. While you won't pick up the sound wave at it's prime, you should pick up the majority of the sound. This is not ideal to mic an actor, but for picking up audience noise it will work given the mic is a decent distance away from feet. You don't want to be picking up shuffling of feet (which is much quieter than clapping and occurs less frequently).

I'll try to find where I read this, but it was a few years ago. Try it out with your own ears: turn your stereo on and lie on the floor. You will be able to hear the music without a problem.

I think that what you are referring to is 'space' loading or in the case of microphones boundary gain, which has to do with reflected sound from the boundary arriving in phase with the direct sound such that they sum coherently and thus increasing the resulting level.

One problem with a boundary mic on the floor in this application is that it will apply the boundary gain to any source not sharing the boundary plane, in other words to the sound from the stage and the speakers as well as from the audience. In addition, you still have to account for distance effect and shadowing, which would result in the mic picking up primarily the audience members directly in front of it and not a larger section of the audience.

 

[mstaylor]

A suggestion, since it is pretty much agreed it would be hard to do without feedback and is a bad idea because of the possible negative praticalities, set it up in a way to assure feedback and get him to nix it on that basis.

 

[DrPinto]

A suggestion, since it is pretty much agreed it would be hard to do without feedback and is a bad idea because of the possible negative praticalities, set it up in a way to assure feedback and get him to nix it on that basis.

That idea would totally deceive his boss but would make for a better show. That's exactly what I would do.

 

[FACTplayers]

That idea would totally deceive his boss but would make for a better show. That's exactly what I would do.

I've never had to say no to a superior, but in this case I would set it up to look like it will work, and run a test trial and pick up a small amount of feedback.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Put a dummy mic in the ceiling, label a fader on the board "audience mic", and play with it when the boss is looking.

But seriously, you probably need to show him that feedback is an issue and persuade him that way.

 

[venuetech]

Have him buy a nice economical SM58 and a good run of cable. Put it up for a test drive. It likely wont work as he wants it to, but you can likely find another use for the 58.

 

[fx120]

Why not get a few stock laughter tracks and play them back on cue sitcom style?

 

[DrPinto]

Why not get a few stock laughter tracks and play them back on cue sitcom style?

I wouldn't go to a comedy club that used canned laughter.

Just stick a mic in the house and make the PA squeal like a stuck pig in front of the boss. Problem solved.

Then again, you could always just get funnier comedians.

 

[museav]

I wouldn't go to a comedy club that used canned laughter.

But is that really that different than electronically reinforcing the laughter from the audience to make the audience think there is more laughter than actually exists?

There are some newer large sports venues that electronically reinforce some of the crowd noise. What happened was that as acoustics was better addressed for such venues, and particularly in relation to higher output, wider bandwidth sound systems, and as the venues grew larger the rooms themselves often do less to naturally reinforce the crowd noise with the unintended consequence of less crowd 'presence'. And that is an aspect that has not been addressed here, could an acoustically 'dead' audience area be a factor in this and if so, might addressing that be a better option?

 

[FACTplayers]

I wouldn't go to a comedy club that used canned laughter.

If it's done right you won't know its canned. As far as you know, you have gone to a comedy club where they used canned laughter. If they keep it very low, alternate on how it's panned, and alternate laugh tracks, it might just work.