band amps or di boxes

[itie]

hello guys, im putting together a small concert at a local theatre i work at. the theatre seats about 200. in past concerts that ive done at school i would di everything and mic the drums and vocals and it would sound great. but most bands fight me about the di and want me to mic there amp which hasn't ended well in the past. i was wondering in a concert setting what works best. letting them play with there amps or di boxes.

thank you
giovanni

 

[epimetheus]

Every situation is different. I've done it both ways, some bands I mic the amps, others I run all DI. Most of the time bass is fine on DI if you give them enough monitor and have enough sub so they can feel the low end. Electric is always the tough one. It really depends on where their processing is. If they're using the amp for effects, then you need to mic the amp to get an accurate sound. If they've got most of they're effects in their pedal board then you can get away with a DI. Stage noise also has to come into play at some point. It doesn't matter how good the band is if the mix sucks because the electric amp is overpowering the mains. The sound engineer has to work with the band on this point.

That's my $0.02.

 

[Eboy87]

What issues did you have with having amps on-stage? If it's space and cluttered changeovers, is sharing backline an option?

In regards to your second question, if it's e-guitar, I would mic the amps and enforce a stage volume limit. Throw a '57 on it if you have to. Part of a guitar's tone is the amp, and believe me, an electric guitar running through a DI just doesn't sound that good unless it has a very nice amp simulator. Bass, keys, and acoustic guitar (if it has a pick-up) I would DI. For 200 people, you can probably get away with just using their amps with very little through the PA.

 

[Footer]

= Part of a guitar's tone is the amp, and believe me, an electric guitar running through a DI just doesn't sound that good unless it has a very nice amp simulator.

Exactly. There is a reason a good amp can cost more then the guitar itself. Amps ARE the sound of the guitar. The only way to go the full sound is to mic the amps. I have even seen some bands keep their amps in sealed boxes that are miced up. DI's are only worthwhile for keys or acoustic instruments. The bands are right, you have to mic the amps. Its more then just supplying sound on stage, its completing the sound of the instrument.

The only exception to the keys rule is if a leslie is involved. If you try to run a DI on a B3 or whatever they are using to feed the leslie, your going to have a keyboard player with a gun to your head.

 

[itie]

well the problem i have is control. i like the di because of the control but u guys make a lot of sense about effects and type of sound. the major problem is that they keep turning up their amps because they dont think they are loud enough. but they are behind the speakers so i dont think they can judge the volume. if you guys think micing the amp is a good way to go then thats what i will do. should i have them turn thee amp way down and make it hot on the sound board end this way if they do turn their amps up i can back them off?

thanks for the help because im more of a lighting tech.
giovanni

 

[ScottT]

well the problem i have is control. i like the di because of the control but u guys make a lot of sense about effects and type of sound. the major problem is that they keep turning up their amps because they dont think they are loud enough. but they are behind the speakers so i dont think they can judge the volume. if you guys think micing the amp is a good way to go then thats what i will do. should i have them turn thee amp way down and make it hot on the sound board end this way if they do turn their amps up i can back them off?

In sound check you should have them start with low levels on their amps and then if the need arises have them turn it up. You should be able to find a comfortable level where you can get all that you need out of your PA and mix it as well as have a good monitor mix (assuming you are doing both).

You say that you are more of a lighting tech, is there someone else who can help you out at least for this concert? Maybe even just someone to stay on stage, listen to your instructions, and relay them to the band.

 

[Morpheus]

well the problem i have is control. i like the di because of the control but u guys make a lot of sense about effects and type of sound. the major problem is that they keep turning up their amps because they dont think they are loud enough. but they are behind the speakers so i dont think they can judge the volume. if you guys think micing the amp is a good way to go then thats what i will do. should i have them turn thee amp way down and make it hot on the sound board end this way if they do turn their amps up i can back them off?

thanks for the help because im more of a lighting tech.
giovanni

that's what a good monitor mix is for...
if they trust you and the mix, you CAN actually control their level...

 

[gpforet]

Once solution is if the guitarist is using a combo amp, put it on a tilt stand with the amp pointing up at the guitar player's head. He'll get plenty of volume and the spill will go upward and not as loud into the audience. Anothe option is to have their amps along the sideline, again letting the guitar player hear his/her rig, but keeping it out of the audience.

well the problem i have is control. i like the di because of the control but u guys make a lot of sense about effects and type of sound. the major problem is that they keep turning up their amps because they dont think they are loud enough. but they are behind the speakers so i dont think they can judge the volume. if you guys think micing the amp is a good way to go then thats what i will do. should i have them turn thee amp way down and make it hot on the sound board end this way if they do turn their amps up i can back them off?

thanks for the help because im more of a lighting tech.
giovanni

 

[museav]

This is a very common discussion. Yes, the amp is often a big part of a guitars sound. At the same time, running many amps at the levels some players want to get the sound they desire, or think they have to, can be problematic in some spaces. And not just small ones, I remember running sound for a band in this 1,100 seat venue, http://http://www.centerstage-atlanta.com/venue.asp, and having one guitar player turn up his amp so loud on stage that I not only had to take him totally out of the mix but to match his level I also had to bring the level of everything else up to the point that I was getting complaints about it being too loud. The problem in that case turned out to be that it was a larger venue then they were used to playing so he apparently felt that he needed to turn his amp up as loud as it could go rather than understanding that this is what the house system was for. We had a talk after that and the next time they played there things were much better.

My general approach is that I will be happy to mic someone's amp if they will work with me and do things like aiming their amp at their ears rather than at the audience and to not turn it up once levels are set. Explain to them that all they need to do is get the sound they want, the reason you are micing the amp in the first place is to let the house system handle amplifying the sound.

If they won't work with me, then I would be more adamant about using a DI or emulator or putting their amp off stage, maybe out in a corridor or a closet (or in a purpose built enclosure as noted). Some musicians seem to actually like using emulators, others don't, but it may be an option. However, if they haven't paid attention to it when setting up the presets, it can be much like changing keyboard patches with some greatly varying levels between presets.

 

[AdamC]

If you're doing rock bands, have the band use their amps, mic the guitar amps, and take a line out or DI from the bass amp. The amps can act as monitors so the band can hear the guitars or bass without needing a ton of them in the monitors. Remember the drums will tend to be the loudest thing on stage, so amps are helpful to even out the stage volume. When the amp levels are set properly, you should be able to turn off the PA and hear an even mix of the drums, bass, and guitars, from stage volume alone.

I usually end up with only vocals in the front monitors (and any acoustic or keyboard DIs) and a mix of the whole band in the drum monitor. Since the drummer is often behind the amps, they typically need a good mix of everything.

There aren't many rock bands that would be comfortable running guitars through DIs. Cover bands that play weddings and use electronic drums or a plexi drum shield would be more likely to do this.

If the amps are overpowering your PA when set to match the drumset levels, the problem is that you don't have sufficient PA for the job.

 

[Chris15]

If the amps are overpowering your PA when set to match the drumset levels, the problem is that you don't have sufficient PA for the job.

Or you value your hearing or you have noise restrictions...

 

[blalew]

There are a couple of issues in play here. One is that for an electric guitarist who uses their amp as part of their sound (90%), asking them to turn the amp down changes their 'tone', which is part of their sound, which will make them unhappy. When the amp is turned up, of course it gets louder, but a tube amp typically changes so that it sounds better. I think the biggest problem here is if an e. guitarist has an amp that's bigger than (say) 15W. It has to get a lot louder to get to that tube amp output stage niceness. Which sucks. A Vox AC30 can get ear piercing before it's even warmed up. And in a small venue = pain for everyone (it's no wonder they don't want it pointed at their head).

The other issue is monitoring - whether they can actually hear themselves. This is where turning the amp down and pointing it at the head helps (instead of the knees, say).

A couple of solutions to the first problem of the e. guitarist amp tone - if it's a combo amp, keep something like the THD HotPlate handy, or provide a house amp that's small (15W or less). The THD HotPlate actually acts like a speaker motor without making noise, so it means their amp can get the output tubes hot without making a LOT of noise. Problem with a device like the HotPlate - it requires that you match the speaker in the cabinet, so I wouldn't suggest adding it to someones amp unless you know what you're doing. Edit: and you ask them, yada yada

A solution for the separate head/cab setup is to put the head near them and have a long speaker cable run from the head to the cabinet, which is put somewhere backstage that can get loud. Of course now you need to mic the cabinet and give them a wedge so they can hear it, so that can be a problem.

One interesting application of a DI is looping the output of an amp (that is put it in line with the speaker cable, not the instrument cable). Some DIs (countryman) can do this and it sounds better than a standard 57. You still get the amp sound because it's after the output stage. Also if the amp is backstage near the drums you won't get snare in your e. guitar amp.

The other 10% of e. guitarists are using a pedal board (or computer) with a cabinet simulator & you can use a DI on their setup.

Hope my ramblings made some sense. Short version - if you don't like e. guitarists coming in & blowing you out with their amps, get your own (nice) small amp ($500+) and provide one for them to play into, that they can also tilt back & listen to if you don't have a full-blown monitor (wedge or in-ear) setup.

 

[museav]

If the amps are overpowering your PA when set to match the drumset levels, the problem is that you don't have sufficient PA for the job.

The potential issue here seems to be whether it is indeed the house system not being enough rig for the gig or instead what is on stage being too much rig for the gig.

 

[AdamC]

Or you value your hearing or you have noise restrictions...

True.. there are plenty of drummers that will damage hearing or violate noise restrictions all by themselves - no PA or band needed.

Sometimes the real problem is booking - whether it's an appropriate band for the audience or venue (or the venue's PA). I don't recommend trying to make an inherently loud band play quietly. Book a quiet band.

Trying to convince a guitarist that normally uses an amp to play through a DI is also not likely to work out very well. Turning amps towards the performer's ears is helpful.

If you are dealing with loud rock, having capable subwoofers is vital. The low end "kick you in the chest" impact can make the mix feel powerful and loud, but still be not too painful or ear damaging.

 

[DuckJordan]

easiest way to get them to turn it down. Most guitarists put their amps on the ground pointing out towards the audience... well if they are on any kind of stageing its sending the sound waves directly at the ears of the audience.. Prop the cab up and point it at him or her. and tell her play as loud as you want while looking at the amp. most of the time they will turn it down because its (too loud). most guitarists dont understand that amps are very directional speakers. so while a point about tubes sounding different over driven yes they do but that destroys equipment. so turn it down get the proper effects pedal for overdrive.

 

[blalew]

so while a point about tubes sounding different over driven yes they do but that destroys equipment. so turn it down get the proper effects pedal for overdrive.

It's just not the same as a pedal, we're talking about the output stage. And it doesn't "destroy equipment" to turn up the output stage so it sounds phat.


THD Electronics
Will it hurt my amp?
The THD Hot Plate® will not damage your amplifier. When you play continuously at full output, you cause your tubes to age more quickly than they would at lower volumes. Using a Hot Plate® will maintain the life of your tubes at exactly the same rate, no more or less, as when you play straight through the speaker.

 

[itie]

hay guys i wanted to say thank you for all the help. i had a gig today and we mic the amps and it worked out really well.

thanks you
giovanni laucella

 

[howlingwolf487]

hello guys, im putting together a small concert at a local theatre i work at. the theatre seats about 200. in past concerts that ive done at school i would di everything and mic the drums and vocals and it would sound great. but most bands fight me about the di and want me to mic there amp which hasn't ended well in the past. i was wondering in a concert setting what works best. letting them play with there amps or di boxes.

thank you
giovanni

As has been mentioned before, stage volume is one of the big limiting factors for any show. For a smaller-sized venue like yours, this is particularly the case. The first option I would present would be "mic the amp". If they followed my instructions, the mic would stay. If they keep turning up after I tell them to turn down or whatever, they get one (and only one) warning. After that, the mic gets taken away and I DI their amp. If the problem keeps up, I cut off the AC power to the amp.

As far as positioning goes, I completely agree with making it so that they hear what most everyone else does - right in their face. However, pointing the cab right back at them may not be the best option...I would place the amps placed on the side of the stage, facing inwards and titled up slightly. That will allow you to keep monitor levels down for all the performers within earshot of the amp, reduce bleed/spill into the audience that combines with the FOH mix, and gives you more control over "how much" you get of that instrument.

There are two things I ask every guitarist I meet:
1. Do you have a tilt stand for your amp?
2. Do you know what a power soak is?

If they answer "no" to either, I fill them in about those products.

One of the guitarists I know uses an Orange Tiny Terror that sounds just fantastic - great tone at a very manageable volume, easy to transport, and it has tubes.

 

[blalew]

One of the guitarists I know uses an Orange Tiny Terror that sounds just fantastic - great tone at a very manageable volume, easy to transport, and it has tubes.

Indeed. 15W amp, and has a switch that can make it 7W, which means it can get very nice tone without being stupid loud. Also available as as a head only to put on your fav cab