Best Video Camera

[Call911]

Hello all,

Working on a new project, need to send a video feed from the auditorium to the lobby. It's going to feed a 60" LCD. I'd like to go HD for best video quality. What camera would be best for the harsh lighting of theater. It would be a wide shot the whole time, don't need robotic pan/tilt. Would just like a good camera that can adjust to the low light and bright light changes well, and can feed an HD signle to the 60" LCD

- sent from my iPhone

 

[lieperjp]

What's your budget? The "best" camera varies widely based on how much you can spend. Also, is it something that will sit on a tripod in the back of the auditorium? Is it something that will be manned if you need to do zoomed in close up shots?

Also, how are you going to send the video to the space? I'm not an expert on sending video on long runs, but methinks you'll have to spend some $$$ to send the video as HD. If you're going to send it as SD, makes life a lot easier. You basically could just go to your local camera dealer/big box store and buy a nice camera (most of which will have HD capability anyways.)

 

[zuixro]

Well if you want the best camera... RED / Index

 

[fredthe]

I happen to like 3-sensor Sony cameras for theater work, because they work well in low light. Single sensor cameras aren't going to be as good. But, auto-iris and gain circuits can get confused with stage lighting, so your image probably won't be perfect without some manual adjustments.

Note that you need a camera that can be externally powered, preferably without its battery. Also make sure that whatever you get (assuming some sort of camcorder) is happy being left on in "record" (as opposed to "playback" mode. Many will shut down after a few minutes, if they are not actively recording anything. Ideally you want a camera-only, but I haven't seen any HD cameras that would be cost effective.

As for the cable run, I expect you'll want to use HDMI (depending on the camera and monitor). You can do a 60 foot run, but you must use top quality cable. Component or SDI-HD should be no problem, if those are your options.

-Fred

 

[dvsDave]

Fredthe is absolutely right. This is one case where buying last years model may not be in your best interest, because the majority of the improvements to video cameras these days are improvements to the sensor, to get you a better picture, with better color, with less night needed.

But, that said, your budget will dictate your selection. If your budget is seriously limited, it's better to go with an older camera with more control. Consumer-grade cameras don't like to be left on record for the most part, but look in the "pro-sumer" range, and you get most, if not all, the features you are looking for.

Also, is this for a permanent installation or only for a specific performance? Video cameras are a very common rental item, albeit, you have to put in a fairly large security deposit as a first time renter. (it's also a rental item that is often abused, so rental companies are careful to protect their investment)

 

[ruinexplorer]

Are you looking for the camera to also be sending audio to the LCD monitor? If you are using the audio mix from the sound console to feed lobby speakers or you aren't using sound at all, I would look in the range of Closed Circuit/Security cameras. They offer a wide range of cameras and are intended for various light levels. If audio is not an issue, a good quality CC camera is better than a camcorder at the same price range for what you need.

 

[museav]

Note that you need a camera that can be externally powered, preferably without its battery. Also make sure that whatever you get (assuming some sort of camcorder) is happy being left on in "record" (as opposed to "playback" mode. Many will shut down after a few minutes, if they are not actively recording anything. Ideally you want a camera-only, but I haven't seen any HD cameras that would be cost effective.

As for the cable run, I expect you'll want to use HDMI (depending on the camera and monitor). You can do a 60 foot run, but you must use top quality cable. Component or SDI-HD should be no problem, if those are your options.

This may be reflecting a common issue in that it seems to be discussing primarily consumer camcorders. It is often overlooked but there is a distinction between a camera and a camcorder, in the industrial and professional market devices that are just a camera and that require power are quite common. A consumer, prosumer or pro camcorder or a security, industrial or professional camera may work for you but each will have its own advantages and disadvantages. For installed application I typically specify industrial or professional cameras however many people operate with prosumer camcorders. You also probably won't find many professional cameras with HDMI outputs, they much more likely to have component, RGBHV or HD-SDI outputs. Prosumer camcorders may be a cost effective approach but are often a bit more difficult to deal with as far as mounting, outputs and operation (e.g. if it loses power does it require being turned on or set to camera mode at the device). Security cameras may also be a cost effective option, however you may have trouble finding security cameras that are HD.

Of course this segues into the whole issue of what you mean by "HD", is that 720p, 1080i or 1080p and at what frame rates? Unless you have a very large budget, 1080p is probably not practical. And as lieperjp noted, budget is often a major factor. In some cases it may be more cost effective to purchase an integrated camera and pan/tilt even for a fixed camera use.

Another aspect to consider is the lens. Regardless of the form of the camera, you want to make sure that the lens allows the camera to capture the wide shot you want for the camera location planned.

 

[Call911]

Hey guys, thanks for the replies. I've been out on a job all day, so this is the first chance I've had to respond.

The camera is going to be permanently mounted center against the backwall of the theater, and will always be a wide shot and unmanned. This is for a highschool, and our resources are stretched thin as it is, therefore we can not assign someone to man the camera, or to man a set of controls for robotic cameras. This simply needs to be "turn on tv, and have video in the lobby".

Budget wise - this is a higschool, and as you know schools are hurting for money right now. But I have 4 theaters that need to have the exact same setup (separate but equal) and have about $20,000 for all 4. Due to the large size of the lobby walls (super high and wide walls) I think anything smaller then a 50" LCD would get lost, and I have a really good price on 4 new Sony 60" for about $8,000. So that leaves about $10,000 for cameras, wires, and etc.

A little background, 2 of the schools are new, and already have wires ran to center lobby (an MATV system) as well as a camera mounted center of house. The camera is pretty bad, very grainy, and no auto-iris, so when house lights go out and stage lights come on everything get's washed out and is pretty pointless. Right now this camera is just being fed to a monitor backstage, but will also be feeding the lobby. I would like to replace it with a better camera. Currently it looks like a basic security camera, but I'm sure if I asked the contractor they'd say it's a top of the line expensive camera. Either way it sucks and I'm not happy with it.

At the other 2 schools, they have no camera, and no wiring. So I need to run wires. Luckily the camera will be mounted on the backwall, and the lobby is right behind that wall. So it's basically mount the camera on one side, the tv on the other, and put a hole in the wall for the wire. Of course it will be done nicely and professionally with the aid of our maintenance department. So the run for that is less then 6'. No problem for HDMI.

I say HDMI because I know it's HD, and it's just one wire to run. No way to mess it up. I'm open to component as well, and would be to HD-SDI, but haven't seen a camera in a reasonable price range that's not robotic that offers HD-SDI.

I would like to go HD just because the LCD will be so large, and will be widescreen. No letter boxing or black bars of any kind would be acceptable. I fear any SD or ED signal would be grainy and pixalated on such a large LCD.

The lobby already has an audio feed via 70v speaker systems, so no need for audio.

I'm basically wondering what's the best camera to use. The best bang for the buck. Right now I have a Sony HDR-FX7 that takes beaitful 1080i video, but use it mostly outdoors. Have never tested it out in the theater. It's a great camera, and for $2,000 would be within the range, but I do not need the capability to record, so if anyone has another option that would be less money, I'm all ears.

Thanks for all the info so far guys, hopefully with the background information you can help me out some more. Specific camera recommendations would be great. Anything under the $2,000 per camera mark would be great.

Thanks again!

 

[museav]

Don't overlook that mounts for the displays and cameras would have to be in your budget as well as providing power and cabling paths for the displays and cameras if those provisions do not already exist.

Your Sony HDR-FX7 may be a good example of some of the issues related to using prosumer gear in such applications. For one thing, it has a 90 day warranty that may not even be applicable since the camera was not intended for this type of operation. And while I don't know how that particular model works, while operating off the AC power adapter try unplugging the power. When you plug it back in does everything come back up where it was or might any power outages require getting to the cameras in order to get them back into the proper operating mode? The initial cost for prosumer gear is often lower and thee devices work just fine for many, however I have also had some clients that within a year had spent more on multiple consumer/prosumer devices than they would have spent if they had initially invested in professional units with a one year warranty that covered the use.

 

[Call911]

Don't overlook that mounts for the displays and cameras would have to be in your budget as well as providing power and cabling paths for the displays and cameras if those provisions do not already exist.

Your Sony HDR-FX7 may be a good example of some of the issues related to using prosumer gear in such applications. For one thing, it has a 90 day warranty that may not even be applicable since the camera was not intended for this type of operation. And while I don't know how that particular model works, while operating off the AC power adapter try unplugging the power. When you plug it back in does everything come back up where it was or might any power outages require getting to the cameras in order to get them back into the proper operating mode? The initial cost for prosumer gear is often lower and thee devices work just fine for many, however I have also had some clients that within a year had spent more on multiple consumer/prosumer devices than they would have spent if they had initially invested in professional units with a one year warranty that covered the use.

museav,

I don't see how using the camera in this way would void any warrenty? You lost me on that statement.

Money has been set aside for power and cabeling. So far I have a nice $10,000 cushion on this project, so plenty of money for any unseen problems.

The camera works fine off of AC power, and has a sliding power switch, so if it loses power, it turns back on upon supply of power again. It also has a small battery built in that saves all settings and data.


I would be interested in some other camera solutions you have to offer. I'm looking for great picture quality, HD, works well with spotlights, etc, everything a theater camera would need to do. Any suggestions would be great, specific models especially. Thanks.

 

[SHARYNF]

Brad raises some subtle but important issues:

Most of the camcorders (sony in particular) store internally drum hours etc. So it is possible that if there is a failure and the on hours far far exceed the drum hours you MIGHT run into some problems. The main issue is that all the controls etc are on the camera and are not designed to be sitting out exposed for months and months, SO you MIGHT have problems where the controls and their connections fail.

When you power off and power back on in auto mode, you probably will find that the white balance is reset, this can be problematic depending on when the power goes off, what sort of lighting is on at the time etc.

Personally I have not seen ANY camera that is just set and forget that works well in a theatrical environment, the lighting on stage is uneven and so the auto iris/shutter systems really do not work well, especially since you will be set up with a wide shot. The auto systems tend to concentrate in the center of the image, and so if you have significant more illumination far stage r and l you will have exposure issues.

Time and again I have seen people attempt to do what you are looking at, and when they get it all installed, the image on the large lcd really looks awful. People are typically over exposed so you have white ghosts, or the image it too dark etc. It really really becomes quite annoying when you try to display this in a large screen.

So some things to think about

Sharyn

 

[museav]

I don't see how using the camera in this way would void any warrenty? You lost me on that statement.

You have to read consumer and prosumer warranties closely as some expressly exclude commercial, professional or industrial use while others are less clear. Generally, consumer or prosumer relate to products sold for an individual's personal use and if the product is installed it would be in a residential application. If a product is used for profit or installed in a commercial or public facility, it pretty much ceases to be a consumer use.

It is an over generalization but typically commercial, industrial and professional products are intended to operate longer hours, work in more difficult environments, etc. They also often incorporate elements or functions more generally oriented at the intended use, such as mounting and powering provisions, the connectivity provided and so on. In the case of commercial and industrial devices, they sometimes also lose some of the 'bells and whistles' that would not generally be used in such applications. The tradeoff is that typically commercial, industrial and professional devices also cost more than comparable consumer devices, a reflection of both the device design and construction and the more limited market.

The Sony HDR-FX7 warranty states "This product warranty only covers product issues caused by defects in material or workmanship during normal use; it does not cover product issues caused by any other reasons, including but not limited to acts of God, misuse, limitations of technology, or modification of or to any part of the Sony product." The potential issues in whether the warranty would be honored most likely relate to the "during normal use" and "misuse". The Sony HDR-FX7 is a consumer product, thus direct use by an individual consumer or residential installation would be "normal use". In this particular case, Sony also offers industrial & professional and broadcast & production application specific product lines, differentiating the products they consider as intended for "normal use" in those applications. Those lines also have almost totally independent support, distribution and service from the consumer products.

So while the warranty involved does not expressly exclude this type of use as some product warranties do, it is pretty clear that it could be construed that this is not an intended use and that could be a reason for denying warranty coverage.

 

[Call911]

Alright guys, point taken. Understood. thanks for the clarification.

The question still stands, would camera would you use for my needs?

 

[WooferHound]

A couple of people have mentioned that Camcorders do not like to be in the Record or Paused modes for very long. I would like to point out that if a Camcorder does Not have a tape in it, then it will work fine as a camera. Just put the power switch into the Camera position and it will come up as a camera everytime power is reapplied to it.

 

[ruinexplorer]

A couple of people have mentioned that Camcorders do not like to be in the Record or Paused modes for very long. I would like to point out that if a Camcorder does Not have a tape in it, then it will work fine as a camera. Just put the power switch into the Camera position and it will come up as a camera everytime power is reapplied to it.

I have not always found this to be true, but I am sure that it will work for some models. I have found that it takes a combination of tape/record for some cam-corders to stay actively outputing and not powering off on their own. This is why it is important to find an appropriate camera.

Edit: To the OP, you might want to check out this camera. You might want to check to see if you could get a demo model before buying.

 

[SHARYNF]

Here is a link to the Panasonic Line Since worship setups have become so high tech there are a number of options, non of them especially cheap. I have used this camera the aw HE100 With the SW rp50 remote controller

Learn about Panasonic's AW-HE100

Learn about Panasonic's AW-RP50

This combination would probably just squeeze into your budget with some good negotiation. the advantage is that even if you do NO use the pan and tilt you have complete control over the rest of the camera functions. Personally I think you will want to fully use pan and tilt and zoom

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/brochures/B_AW-HE100.pdf
\
You might also look at the HE50 series there is a HDMI version

Learn about Panasonic's AW-HE50H

This solution would fit in your budget about 6700 dollars

Sharyn

 

[museav]

This solution would fit in your budget about 6700 dollars

Maybe I misunderstood, but I interpreted the budget to be $10,000 for cameras in four venues or about $2,500 per camera.

 

[SHARYNF]

Sorry missed that, kept seeing the want the best camera. At at that price point I have no suggestion, basically on a 60" screen IMO the consumer camera on autopilot is not going look good at all.

Sharyn

 

[derekleffew]

I'm finding it hard to believe this should be so difficult. I remember a new theatre built in 1986 with a "latecomer's monitor" system. (Make those who arrive late to a performance wait in the lobby until an appropriate time to be seated, at the House Manager's discretion.) A camera fed an image to a couple of 19" CRTs in the bar. Worked fine. Not "broadcast quality" of the day, but acceptable; especially when most theatres had nothing.

Is it the HD on a 60"LCD desirability that's driving the cost and complexity?

My motto:
When faced with an insurmountable obstacle, lower your expectations. That way, you'll never be disappointed, only pleasantly surprised.

 

[museav]

The HD aspect is a factor. Just for an example, Sony offers a couple of videoconferencing style packaged 'robotic' SD cameras with composite and S-Video outputs for a list price of $1,200 or $1,220. In comparison, they offer three similar concept HD cameras with list prices from $3,499 to $4,728.

Another factor is that while there are a number of HD security cameras that might fit the application and the budget, they are network based. They don't have actual video outputs and are instead intended to go to computers running the appropriate software or a network recorder.

Pretty much the only HD camera options in the price range seem to be consumer/prosumer or a few entry level pro/industrial camcorders.