calling all boy scouts and sailors - knot help needed

[Stuart R]

Hello all -

I need some help with knots as I go about hanging a new cyc drop using grommets.

First, I need to attach line securely to the grommets themselves. Since the grommets are a good 1.5" from the edge, I need a knot that will allow room for that space.

The second knot will attach to the pipe, and needs to be a sliding knot so I can adjust the tension and distance of the fabric to the floor.

What knots should I use?

Thanks.

 

[bobgaggle]

I'll answer in order...

1. the lark's head is pretty standard for tying line to grommets. Generally, we don't care about the fabric bunching up a bit because the top of a drop is never seen.

2a. The premise of your second question goes against best practice. You want your pipe to be parallel to the floor, so the drop is always tight to the pipe and consequently, parallel to the floor. Trying to adjust trim height of individual points on a drop due to an improperly trimmed pipe will be a nightmare. Your drop will never hang straight.

2b. There are many methods of tying drop to pipe, but the standard one is to wrap both ends of the tie line 1 full turn around the pipe in opposing directions, then tying a shoelace knot above the pipe. Sliding hitches are a bad idea because, well, they slide. And they'll slide when you don't want them to...


Other notes:

36" 2 cubits of tie line is a good length, further discussion here. And go for the unwaxed tie line, my .02

 

[egilson1]

I second what @bobgaggle said.

 

[Stuart R]

I'll answer in order...

1. the lark's head is pretty standard for tying line to grommets. Generally, we don't care about the fabric bunching up a bit because the top of a drop is never seen.

2a. The premise of your second question goes against best practice. You want your pipe to be parallel to the floor, so the drop is always tight to the pipe and consequently, parallel to the floor. Trying to adjust trim height of individual points on a drop due to an improperly trimmed pipe will be a nightmare. Your drop will never hang straight.

2b. There are many methods of tying drop to pipe, but the standard one is to wrap both ends of the tie line 1 full turn around the pipe in opposing directions, then tying a shoelace knot above the pipe. Sliding hitches are a bad idea because, well, they slide. And they'll slide when you don't want them to...


Other notes:

36" 2 cubits of tie line is a good length, further discussion here. And go for the unwaxed tie line, my .02

Howdy Aaron -

I understand and concur with everything you've said. The one missing element, which I omitted in my original post (trying to keep things simple), is that the drop is too long for our space. It was gifted to my school by another theatre, which has a larger distance from pipe to deck. In an ideal world, we'd cut it to size and sew new hems, a new pipe sleeve, and all the rest. Unfortunately, the drop is large, heavy, and unwieldy, and I've not been able to locate anyone around our community who has the skill, equipment, time, and willingness to volunteer to for this major sewing challenge. The solution we decided to go with is to install a series of grommets (perhaps 18" o.c.?) along the bottom edge, and use these to create a sort of J-shaped hammock for a 1/2" pipe, whose weight would pull the material taut. With this approach, I need to tie the other ends of the grommeted lines to the original pipe. Your point about sliding knots having a tendency to slide is well-taken, though, so I'm thinking I'll just have to experiment to see what length of line lifts the bottom edge just off the floor, and then use the same length of line throughout.

The other solution I thought of, which I haven't quite been able to figure out in my head, would be to leave the bottom of the drop as it is, and use the pipe sleeve as intended, taking the slack up on the top end. [The top end presently has the usual jute backing and grommets.] I've been trying to figure out if there's a way to fold the extra material and sandwich it between wooden battens, and then use eyebolts or similar to hang *that* from the pipe. It feels to me like there's be more room for error, and I'd have to deal with trying to construct a monolithic/continuous batten out of a lot of separate pieces of lumber.

 

[techieman33]

Most of us skip the full wrap around the pipe and just tie it like you would your shoes. And NO DOUBLE KNOTS. After all it's really all about making the load out as easy as possible.

 

[bobgaggle]

skip the full wrap

ah true, i just did a job where we hung a drop from a genie though, so the full wrap helps keep it from slipping down while you're tying the knot. Whatever works...

edit:

I was in the genie, at height, tying the drop to the pipe. Not tying a drop to a genie...

 

[Van]

ah true, i just did a job where we hung a drop from a genie though, so the full wrap helps keep it from slipping down while you're tying the knot. Whatever works...

edit:

I was in the genie, at height, tying the drop to the pipe. Not tying a drop to a genie...

My standard has always been; Standing on the upstage side of the batten you bring the downstage tie all the way around the batten once. The Upstage line goes straight up the the upstage side. Tie a Bow Knot on top of the pipe, pull one leg all the way through, that way when you go to strike the drop you only have to pull on one piece of line and the piece will drop.

The only time I do a full wrap with both lines is if I'm doing an 'Opera Tie' where the Jute is pulled all the way up to cover the pipe and the bow sits on the rear of the batten.

Oh, and Yeah, Larks Head for securing to the grommet.

 

[bobgaggle]

My boss is fond of a tie he calls "showboating". Both lines make a full turn over pipe from dowstage side, split around the larks head, then tie the knot above there the lines go over the pipe. Weird description, but it lets the ears of the knot go L/R instead of US/DS. And you can cinch the drop higher than the bottom of the pipe...

 

[Aaron Clarke]

The solution we decided to go with is to install a series of grommets (perhaps 18" o.c.?) along the bottom edge,

Rather than placing grommets in the bottom place a pipe in the original pipe pocket, then you only need to support that pipe every 2-3' and that will give you more even tension along the bottom. You'll just need to slit the pipe pocket where you run your line but this will save you a lot of hassle trying to even out the tension at each grommet. Not my idea but suggested by @BillConnerFASTC in your other post on the subject.

 

[egilson1]

My boss is fond of a tie he calls "showboating". Both lines make a full turn over pipe from dowstage side, split around the larks head, then tie the knot above there the lines go over the pipe. Weird description, but it lets the ears of the knot go L/R instead of US/DS. And you can cinch the drop higher than the bottom of the pipe...

Also known as an opera tie. Allows for the drape to be held up along the top edge of the batten to mask it.

Ethan

 

[kicknargel]

Yes, the suggestions here and in the other thread are better than the grommet idea proposed. But, you get to choose, so in answer to your question: I would tie each of these lines off to the top pipe with a clove hitch. Then I would run them through the grommet at the bottom (or through the slit , around the bottom pipe, or the clamp on the bottom pipe) and tie them off with a trucker's hitch back to the line hanging down. This allows for easy adjustment, which you can make on the ground rather than in the air.

 

[derekleffew]

To answer the question asked, not the one wished were asked...
Bowline through the grommet and clove hitch around the pipe.
Call me Ishmael.
/\

 

[JAC]

For a sliding hitch that won't slip, at least when static, google the midshipman's hitch.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Clove hitch? Ugh those are so annoying on the out. But if it’s set it and forget it, sure.

 

[bobgaggle]

Clove hitch? Ugh those are so annoying on the out. But if it’s set it and forget it, sure.

Clove hitches fall apart pretty quick if you yank one of the lines backwards against the hitch. Even faster if its a heavy drop. Another benefit of unwaxed line.

 

[Van]

Clove hitches fall apart pretty quick if you yank one of the lines backwards against the hitch. Even faster if its a heavy drop. Another benefit of unwaxed line.

Also finish off the Clove hitch with a half bow. stays fast, pulls right out.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

To each their own. I only do cloves if I’m running cable up a vertical pipe.

 

[JChenault]

Yes, the suggestions here and in the other thread are better than the grommet idea proposed. But, you get to choose, so in answer to your question: I would tie each of these lines off to the top pipe with a clove hitch. Then I would run them through the grommet at the bottom (or through the slit , around the bottom pipe, or the clamp on the bottom pipe) and tie them off with a trucker's hitch back to the line hanging down. This allows for easy adjustment, which you can make on the ground rather than in the air.

+1 for the truckers hitch. Easy to tie and change the length. Will not slip. If it were me I would tie to the top pipe with a bowline.

 

[Crisp image]

Round turn 2 half hitches allows adjustment under load since the holding power is in the round turn and the half hitches stop the round turn coming undone. A bowline at the anchor end works too.
Regads
Geoff

 

[sloop]

Hello all -

I need some help with knots as I go about hanging a new cyc drop using grommets.

First, I need to attach line securely to the grommets themselves. Since the grommets are a good 1.5" from the edge, I need a knot that will allow room for that space.

The second knot will attach to the pipe, and needs to be a sliding knot so I can adjust the tension and distance of the fabric to the floor.

What knots should I use?

Thanks.

You should use a taut line hitch. https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/tautline-hitch for the adjustable knot. It will slide, but won't slip on its own. To tie to the top, a clove hitch with a half hitch to secure it.