Mixers/Consoles Digital Mixing Consoles

[parent5446]

My school might be looking to replace our current mixer with a Mackie tt24 digital mixer (the current sound board is also a Mackie). The primary reason is because it has the capability of working in sync with another of the same mixer, essentially allowing us to have a FOH operator in the booth and a separate sound operator in the recording studio. However, I am weary about the details, and figured I'd reach out for help.

My first question is simple: why is it that many online stores have discontinued the Mackie tt24 for no apparent reason? Is it a bad product or something?

My next question is slightly more challenging. Since we are looking into getting a new board, one of my teachers has suggested putting the mixer downstairs in the auditorium, rather than in the booth, which is in an overhead balcony and has poor acoustics. Is the acoustical advantage of having the board downstairs really worth having to re-route all the wiring for our body mics?

Finally, last but not least, if we end up getting the tt24, should we get the snake that comes with it (also digital), or just stick with our analog snake. I really appreciate any help, because my school is hesitant to fund this project unless they are sure it is worth spending money on, which means if they go through with it and it turns out not to be worth it, it's gonna be my fault.

 

[DaveySimps]

Not sure why so many places online seem to have discontinued it. It was a bit buggy at first, but other forums seem to indicate that recent updates have helped, especially with the issues with card slot B. I do not know of anyone who have used it, so I cannot comment first hand. Before making such an investment, it is always money well spent to try and rent one to use on a show to see how it suits your needs first.

Establishing a mix position in the actual house its MUCH more desirable than being stuck in a booth. It is akin to a lighting designer setting levels with an eye patch on. It is ABSOLUTELY worth the move, hands down.

If you have a perfectly good working snake, there is not a huge reason I know of off hand to spend the extra cash on the digital snake. However, doing so may help alleviate some issues with routing your lines to an in the house mix position.

~Dave

 

[MisterTim]

My school might be looking to replace our current mixer with a Mackie tt24 digital mixer (the current sound board is also a Mackie). The primary reason is because it has the capability of working in sync with another of the same mixer, essentially allowing us to have a FOH operator in the booth and a separate sound operator in the recording studio. However, I am weary about the details, and figured I'd reach out for help.

This is one of the reasons why we purchased our TT24 4 years ago.

My first question is simple: why is it that many online stores have discontinued the Mackie tt24 for no apparent reason? Is it a bad product or something?

Mackie's parent company, LOUD Technologies, was having a lot of manufacturing issues with their plants in Asia. They have recently moved all manufacturing to the USA (I think, don't quote me on this) and I saw a recently press release that said that they were back up to capacity on manufacturing. This affected a lot of Mackie products, in fact I think I saw everything except their speakers having 'out of stock' problems at one time or another.

Also, the 1.7.x firmware update for the TT24 fixed every single problem I had ever had with it over the last 4 years, as well as adding a TON of useful (and much missed) digital routing capability.

My next question is slightly more challenging. Since we are looking into getting a new board, one of my teachers has suggested putting the mixer downstairs in the auditorium, rather than in the booth, which is in an overhead balcony and has poor acoustics. Is the acoustical advantage of having the board downstairs really worth having to re-route all the wiring for our body mics?

ABSOFREAKINGLUTELY. I'm stuck in an overhead booth (with a half-height window, GRR) and I hate every single second up there. I've taken to a laptop and Remote Desktop for controlling the mixer during rehearsals.

Finally, last but not least, if we end up getting the tt24, should we get the snake that comes with it (also digital), or just stick with our analog snake. I really appreciate any help, because my school is hesitant to fund this project unless they are sure it is worth spending money on, which means if they go through with it and it turns out not to be worth it, it's gonna be my fault.

It's really handy, especially if you're planning to have two boards, but not necessary. I rock 40 channels of analog snake.

Prior to the 1.7.1 firmware update, the TT24 was a pretty bland board. However, it now has all the routing and capabilities that a basic digital board needs, and I think it's well worth it for the price. I've never regretted buying it.

 

[SHARYNF]

Can someone please explain what is meant by this?

The primary reason is because it has the capability of working in sync with another of the same mixer, essentially allowing us to have a FOH operator in the booth and a separate sound operator in the recording studio.

Sharyn

 

[gpforet]

I have worked with the console both in the booth, and at FOH position. When working in the booth, I close the window, place two condenser mics in appropriate places in the house, and monitor the mix thru these mics. Many large venues still operate the FOH console from the booth for even large musicals (The Fox in Atanta is one). If the speaker system has been properly selected and deployed, then the location of the console in not an issue. The condenser mics I refer to allow me to monitor the house to account for acoustic bleed.

Ideally, placing the console in a FOH position would be best for the engineer, provided it's not located at the very back of the room, or in a corner, etc. If the console cannot be placed mid-house, then that kind of defeats the purpose.

Another problem with locating the console in the house is security. Unless you can be assured that the console and associated racks can be locked up tight when not in use (including the doghouse), expect the system to be played with, tampered with, and possibly stolen (even things like cable, little-lites, headphones, and even large pieces).

My next question is slightly more challenging. Since we are looking into getting a new board, one of my teachers has suggested putting the mixer downstairs in the auditorium, rather than in the booth, which is in an overhead balcony and has poor acoustics. Is the acoustical advantage of having the board downstairs really worth having to re-route all the wiring for our body mics?
.

 

[museav]

Just curious, but do you already have the other TT24? If not there are a number of consoles or digital snakes that can work in a shared input FOH and monitor/recording configuration. Or you could simply incorporate an analog split.

The availability of the TT24 has been a subject in many forums for the last 9 months or so. LOUD had multiple problems with their Chinese manufacturers, first a fire in one factory then probably their largest production contractor going out of business, which not only left LOUD with no production of the related products but also tied up the tooling for them until things could be sorted out. That explains many of the product availability issues experienced over the last year or so. However, LOUD has been announcing that all that is in the past and that production is back to normal, so it seems that either there is something else going on with the TT24 or the announcements were made more to reassure investors than to represent reality. Curiously, there are several discussions on the Mackie forums regarding the status of the TT24 and while Mackie reps keep referencing the latest software build recently released, there does not seem to be any real definitive response regarding the status or future of the TT24. The TT24 accidentally being moved to the discontinued products pages on Mackie's web site and having some related links broken certainly didn't help.

Your last two questions may be related. If you implement a digital snake or a console that uses a stage box (or multiple stage boxes) and a separate work surface, then the console connections may become one or two CAT5 cables or something similar to that, which would make moving the console much easier. Maybe the stage box or snake headend lives in the booth with the existing wiring going into it or maybe it moves to the stage and replaces or supplements the existing analog wiring. Or maybe this general concept is outside the budget, but probably best to look at the options before heading in any one direction.

I'll make the same recommendation I often do. Step back, look at what you are trying to do and what is needed. Get a rough conceptual idea of the system using 'black boxes' for the products and focusing on how things have to interconnect and interrelate. Then start looking at what products provide the functionality that defines. In effect, select equipment to fit the design concept rather than fitting the design concept around the equipment.

 

[cm578707]

We have a TT24 at our Mainstage venue at my university. The board has had many problems in the past, but has improved slightly with firmware. The most recent problem we encountered was the usb card malfunctioning. There was no physical damage, it simply stopped interfacing with the PC. We also have an M7 and a few LS9's. If you have options for purchase, I would lean toward the LS9 or something in that line. The TT is bulky and doesn't do much that the LS9 can't accomplish. I would avoid this console based on the instabilities it has had for me.

 

[fx120]

We've got two, one with a DLP card and U100 card, and the second with two U100's, and a single DS3232 and it's a fairly decent little package.

They've had issues in the past, most of which have been resolved by now and on the used market they're incredibly inexpensive. I've seen the sell for as little as $3000 with a road case.

That said, they are an aging console and IMO no "pro" quality, the little things that matter like the pots and faders just don't respond as quickly as other consoles above it do, it's a monochrome screen instead of color, the buttons can require a harder press sometimes, ect.

And as others have pointed out, the future of it is up in the air. I wouldn't be surprised to see Mackie discontinue it by the end of the year officially.

 

[SHARYNF]

I have worked with the console both in the booth, and at FOH position. When working in the booth, I close the window, place two condenser mics in appropriate places in the house, and monitor the mix thru these mics. Many large venues still operate the FOH console from the booth for even large musicals (The Fox in Atanta is one). If the speaker system has been properly selected and deployed, then the location of the console in not an issue. The condenser mics I refer to allow me to monitor the house to account for acoustic bleed.

Ideally, placing the console in a FOH position would be best for the engineer, provided it's not located at the very back of the room, or in a corner, etc. If the console cannot be placed mid-house, then that kind of defeats the purpose.

Another problem with locating the console in the house is security. Unless you can be assured that the console and associated racks can be locked up tight when not in use (including the doghouse), expect the system to be played with, tampered with, and possibly stolen (even things like cable, little-lites, headphones, and even large pieces).

I am not trying to start an agrument on this but I would have to say that I don't agree with all the points. I guess my comment would that you can work with the in boot situations but there are more issues that might firstly be apparent

I know analogies are not good but I guess I could argue that it would be like saying to the lighting designer that you could DESIGN (not run since in the design is when you are most likely to make changes) for the event using a decent video camera and a monitor....


The problem is that Most audio FOH is NOT a set an forget it there are changes that need to be made that are subtle to make sure that the sound is as close to perfection as possible (here is possibly where there might be a disagreement on the need to do this)

SO I want to hear what the audience hears, NOT what the mic hears, with the mic and its placement having what could be a dramatic effect on what I hear. Again analogies are not good but It would be similar to having audience mics and mixing via head phones. Sure you can HEAR but is that really the point.

I know a lot of venues do infact have the audio console in the booth, but IMO this is left over from poor design choices, and where in many cases the theater design person is more of a lighting theater design that Audio design person.

SO I guess I would say if you dragged me kicking and screaming in the design process I might be beaten into allowing the console to be put in the booth

I have seen many cases where this is what is done, and then over time someone decides that it really does not work and then some sort of make shift plywood contraption over the back of seats gets deployed or the console gets damaged when it is moved or disconnected.

SO maybe it is a "religious" war but Mixer in the booth is my Absolutely last choice

I would rather be in the last row or on the side then in a booth. In addition in a lot of cases it is NOT easy to get from the booth quickly into the audience space to actually listen. SO if it is in the last row or a corner at least if you have the option of discretely and quickly move around, you are IMO far better off. In addition, IMO as your experience increases and your ears get more educated, you MIGHT be able to work better in the booth, BUT typically your desires and demands will be for just the opposite. For the typical school environment, Outside of security which is another issue, IMO the less experienced mixer is going to be able to do a better job In the audience space

Anyway different perspectives make for different designs

Sharyn

 

[gpforet]

Very good points, Sharyn. No argument necessary. Since I spend much time in the studio, and on location sound for film and video, I've learned to live by what the mic picks up, and what I hear in my in-ears and as a result, typically, when I've had the chance to leave the booth, and walk into the house during a show, I have been surprised how good it sounds. So, in my experience, soloing in my in-ears between my house mics (which I agree are to be critically placed), my groups for balance, my individual channels for tweaks to the eq or insert compressors, I can dial in a pretty good mix and drive that mix actively as the show progresses.

All course, all of this relies on a FOH speaker system properly fitted and deployed. If I've got to adjust my mix to attempt to remedy a poor speaker system, then I'm going to struggle the entire night.

With all this said, I have no doubt that console in the house makes it easier for the sound engineer.

I am not trying to start an agrument on this but I would have to say that I don't agree with all the points. I guess my comment would that you can work with the in boot situations but there are more issues that might firstly be apparent

I know analogies are not good but I guess I could argue that it would be like saying to the lighting designer that you could DESIGN (not run since in the design is when you are most likely to make changes) for the event using a decent video camera and a monitor....


The problem is that Most audio FOH is NOT a set an forget it there are changes that need to be made that are subtle to make sure that the sound is as close to perfection as possible (here is possibly where there might be a disagreement on the need to do this)

SO I want to hear what the audience hears, NOT what the mic hears, with the mic and its placement having what could be a dramatic effect on what I hear. Again analogies are not good but It would be similar to having audience mics and mixing via head phones. Sure you can HEAR but is that really the point.

I know a lot of venues do infact have the audio console in the booth, but IMO this is left over from poor design choices, and where in many cases the theater design person is more of a lighting theater design that Audio design person.

SO I guess I would say if you dragged me kicking and screaming in the design process I might be beaten into allowing the console to be put in the booth

I have seen many cases where this is what is done, and then over time someone decides that it really does not work and then some sort of make shift plywood contraption over the back of seats gets deployed or the console gets damaged when it is moved or disconnected.

SO maybe it is a "religious" war but Mixer in the booth is my Absolutely last choice

I would rather be in the last row or on the side then in a booth. In addition in a lot of cases it is NOT easy to get from the booth quickly into the audience space to actually listen. SO if it is in the last row or a corner at least if you have the option of discretely and quickly move around, you are IMO far better off. In addition, IMO as your experience increases and your ears get more educated, you MIGHT be able to work better in the booth, BUT typically your desires and demands will be for just the opposite. For the typical school environment, Outside of security which is another issue, IMO the less experienced mixer is going to be able to do a better job In the audience space

Anyway different perspectives make for different designs

Sharyn

 

[museav]

Many large venues still operate the FOH console from the booth for even large musicals (The Fox in Atanta is one).

There has never really been a 'booth' for the mix position at The Fox. The current house mix position is in a small alcove at the back of the main floor off to house left. However, for tours there is also a concert mix position in the center of the main floor house seating with comms, 24 mic inputs and 4 tie lines as well as access for snakes from the stage along with a Broadway mix position at the center rear of the house right behind the partial height wall also with comms, 24 mic inputs and 4 tie lines and snake access. The concert mix position snake access is through the air conditioning plenum below the seating (other than the chiller which has been replaced the air conditioning is original to 1929 and is a low pressure, evaporative cooling system that feeds the cooled air through a large plenum area under the main floor from which the air comes up through holes in the floor with 'mushrooms' under the seats), they remove one or two of the mushrooms and use the holes to pull up snakes from below. The Broadway mix position snake access are holes drilled from the same plenum just for that purpose, the holes are covered with removable plates and carpet when not in use.

At least three House Engineers (Jesse, Milo and now Rodney) have not been real happy with the house mix position at The Fox. It is better now than it was but there have been multiple attempts to get the console moved out into the seating. In this case they are fighting not only deleting seats that represent income but also the authority of the people that oversee the historic preservation of The Fox.

 

[TimmyP1955]

You cannot optimize a mix if you can't hear it as the audience hears it. There are too many differences between the PA+Hall sound Vs. the Monitors+Booth sound. You might get it "good" but you'll never get it "right". If I had to mix from a booth, I'd insist on a console that I could mix from a laptop/tablet in the hall.

As far as FOH taking up seats, theater managers and bar owners never seem to understand that it's better to have 90 seats that are full than to have 100 seats that are half full because the sound does not cut it.

 

[gpforet]

My mistake. After having been in the audience for several performances at the Fox including Avenue Q and Leonard Cohen, I have never been able to spot the mix position from any of the places I sat, hence my conclusion that mix position was remote.

Great info on the Fox team and the venue's layout.

There has never really been a 'booth' for the mix position at The Fox. The current house mix position is in a small alcove at the back of the main floor off to house left. However, for tours there is also a concert mix position in the center of the main floor house seating with comms, 24 mic inputs and 4 tie lines as well as access for snakes from the stage along with a Broadway mix position at the center rear of the house right behind the partial height wall also with comms, 24 mic inputs and 4 tie lines and snake access. The concert mix position snake access is through the air conditioning plenum below the seating (other than the chiller which has been replaced the air conditioning is original to 1929 and is a low pressure, evaporative cooling system that feeds the cooled air through a large plenum area under the main floor from which the air comes up through holes in the floor with 'mushrooms' under the seats), they remove one or two of the mushrooms and use the holes to pull up snakes from below. The Broadway mix position snake access are holes drilled from the same plenum just for that purpose, the holes are covered with removable plates and carpet when not in use.

At least three House Engineers (Jesse, Milo and now Rodney) have not been real happy with the house mix position at The Fox. It is better now than it was but there have been multiple attempts to get the console moved out into the seating. In this case they are fighting not only deleting seats that represent income but also the authority of the people that oversee the historic preservation of The Fox.

 

[gpforet]

The argument that the mix engineer must hear what the house hears is a bit flawed unless the mixer has the opportunity to sit in every seat in the house during the show. Otherwise, the mix is an approximation. While this may hold weight if I am having to compensate for an ill-behaving room, or a flawed deployment, this is a case of "fixing it in the mix" which is an illusion since adjusting for the frequency response to accomodate flaws in one area will degrade the reponse curve in another area.

I guess my age is showing. I was always willing to work with whatever I was given and cannot bring myself to identify what is "right" from what is "wrong" especially in the case of mixing. I suspect that in any environment, two mix engineeers, working with the same set of parameters, will always wind up with two different sounding mixes. Is one right and one wrong?

And I stay busy in this industry by not INSISTING that I be provided with a particular tool.

You cannot optimize a mix if you can't hear it as the audience hears it. There are too many differences between the PA+Hall sound Vs. the Monitors+Booth sound. You might get it "good" but you'll never get it "right". If I had to mix from a booth, I'd insist on a console that I could mix from a laptop/tablet in the hall.

As far as FOH taking up seats, theater managers and bar owners never seem to understand that it's better to have 90 seats that are full than to have 100 seats that are half full because the sound does not cut it.

 

[parent5446]

Wow, thanks for all the answers everybody. As far as I can tell, I think the overall consensus is that somewhere FOH is the best place for the mixer (unfortunately, my crew is composed of high schoolers, and I do not want to confuse them by doing some kind of monitor situation with condenser mics in the house). Most of the responses seem positive concerning the Mackie tt24 and its associated snake, but as some have said, the future of the board is currently in the air, so I will probably wait a little while and see what happens with LOUD to see if the board is moving forward anytime soon.

 

[Parker]

We have an LS9-32 at my theatre and it has a FOH position near the rear of the house... My suggestions: Don't be scared off by the digital sound world... embrace it... my students seem to have taken to it just fine.
Also, get the mixer out of the booth! You will need to hear as much of the same sounds as your audience as possible. FOH center would be best, if your space allows for it. I would get a nice roll-top, locking desk to store the mixer and leave it there. Let us know what setup you decide on... and what your reasons were for choosing it.

 

[mixmaster]

Wow, thanks for all the answers everybody. As far as I can tell, I think the overall consensus is that somewhere FOH is the best place for the mixer (unfortunately, my crew is composed of high schoolers, and I do not want to confuse them by doing some kind of monitor situation with condenser mics in the house). Most of the responses seem positive concerning the Mackie tt24 and its associated snake, but as some have said, the future of the board is currently in the air, so I will probably wait a little while and see what happens with LOUD to see if the board is moving forward anytime soon.

If you put in a digital snake, could you use both mix positions? The original mix position in our big venue is in a booth originally designed for the organ pipes, behind a screen behind the last row of seats in the balcony. When I do big shows, theater, concerts, etc. I move our board (ls932) down to the house, where the snake tails live. For lectures, and other "fancy" shows, where aesthetics are a greater concern that convenience, I put the mixer in the booth use those tails, and mix from the front row of the balcony with a laptop. With a digital snake, running a CAT5 line or two out to the house and a line up to the booth should be relatively easy. Most small digital boards are easy for one person to manage (two if the board is in a case-good idea)
As to mixer preference, I have only worked with the Yamaha family. I have a friend who had a TT24 a few years ago, but said it was glitchy, unreliable, and after using my LS9, liked it so much that sold his tt24 and bought an ls9, and then an m7. I understand that Mackie has changed many features of the board since, but I can't get comfortable with the idea of uing a peice of equipment that had so many bugs to start out with. I know that's rather vague second-hand info so its YMMV
Matt

 

[parent5446]

I was browsing around the forums when I found one thread where somebody who bought a tt24 was extremely dissatisfied, and all the replies recommend the LS9 (as somebody here recommended). Can LS9 boards connect to each other like the tt24s can?

 

[Morpheus]

I was browsing around the forums when I found one thread where somebody who bought a tt24 was extremely dissatisfied, and all the replies recommend the LS9 (as somebody here recommended). Can LS9 boards connect to each other like the tt24s can?

Well, there are many ways of "connecting" boards together, it all depends on what you want to do...

For example, you could route the main outs from board 'A' into a stereo pair on "B" to expand channel count..
You could split the inputs at the stage and send independent signal to each board...
You could direct out from board 'A' to board 'B'...
You could submix on "A" and send to "B" to do group level control...

 

[Chris15]

Whilst it's easier to do on something like a PM5D or a DM2K which have dedicated cascade ports, I think you'd be able to pair LS9s to do pretty much whatever you wanted, with the right card/s in the expansion slot/s, but in doing so you lose the ability to have any other option card in a LS9-16 and depending on what you wanted linked, you may need both slots in the 32...