Flat construction.
- Thread starterchadgreen
- Start date
Most places rip it down to 2 1/2" or 3".
I don't do this practice. I build everything with good old 1x4. I have worked places that do the 1x12 thing and my opinion is its not worth it. Not only do your waste time having to rip down the 1x12, but unless the wood is PERFECT, you end up with water skis. Usually your first cut is usable. Your second cut is somewhat usable. Your third cut is not usable. Not worth it in my opinion. Also, my lumber yard sells by the board feet so its a wash anyway.
I don't do this practice. I build everything with good old 1x4. I have worked places that do the 1x12 thing and my opinion is its not worth it. Not only do your waste time having to rip down the 1x12, but unless the wood is PERFECT, you end up with water skis. Usually your first cut is usable. Your second cut is somewhat usable. Your third cut is not usable. Not worth it in my opinion. Also, my lumber yard sells by the board feet so its a wash anyway.
Anvilx
Active Member
It is more economical if you buy from a borg, additionally the bigger and longer the boards the clearer they seem to be.
Parker
Member
I recently heard of this practice as well. Personally, I don't care to spend the added time ripping stick lumber. However, I can see the advantage of using the same sized materials for all of your stocked goods. When I came into my current theatre, the flats/platforms were all made out of "whatever happened to be on hand" when they needed to be slapped together. I am now in the process of trashing/recycling all of the oddly built items with what I would consider more standard practices. To each his/her own I guess, whatever works best for your needs!
MPowers
Well-Known Member
Standard lumber dimensions are always "nominal". That means the "size" is a name, not a measurement. True dimensions are approximately 1/2" narrower in width and 1/4" to 1/2" less in thickness. This is because the mill starts with a log that is cut to a 12"x12" rough cut beam at longest length the original log will allow. The mill saw blade is usually a circular saw 3 to 5 feet in diameter or a band saw blade 10 to 12 inches wide and the teeth on these blades are about the size of the claw on a 20oz hammer and leave a very rough surface. When that 12"x12" beam is dressed or planed to make the faces even and flat enough to sell, the log is now about 11 1/4" square, but it is still called a 12"x12". when one cuts a 12" beam into 3 equal planks one way and 12 planks the other, they must be 4" wide x 1" thick each, right? Well the saw blades at this stage are still fairly large and take a solid 1/8" to 3/16" kerf per cut and leave a rough surface that must be planed or "dressed". The end result is the 1x4 you buy is actually 3/4x 3 1/2", but 1x4 is a lot easer to say and write on the bill. Common lumber sizes are 1x2 = 3/4"x1 1/2"; 1x3=3/4"x2 1/2"(sometimes 2 5/8" always check). 1x4 - 6 - 8 - 10 are all 3/4" thick and approximately 1/2" less than their "name" dimension. A 2x4 is 1-1/2"x3-1/2". All 2x stock is 1-1/2" thick and the widths are, like the 1x stock approximately 1/2" less than the nominal dimension.
Buying 1x12 and ripping your own stock is not a new idea, I first did this in 1963 and I learned it from the "old" guy who was TD then. Whether or not it is more economical depends on many factors.
1. What is the cost and quality of the 1x12 you can get? Good quality 1x12 will produce good quality ripped stock. Medium quality stock will produce twisted, cupped, bowed or curved ripped stock. Is the cost of the ripped stock in your area significantly higher per board foot than the 1x12?
2. How is your shop equipped in terms of a good table saw? 10" and 1 1/2 HP at least, 12" and 2 or more HP is better.
3. What is your labor situation? Union hands, skilled but paid by the hour? Students who are less skilled but paid minimum or free. Community Theatre volunteers, maybe highly skilled, maybe all thumbs, rarely paid. Skilled workers can turn out a large amount of accurately ripped boards quickly, but you have to figure the cost of their labor in with the cost of the lumber.
4. What is your time situation? Can you afford to have your crew or a couple of them, spend the time to do the ripping?
5. What is your storage/material handling situation? Do you tend to buy your lumber as you need it, or do you buy a show or season at a time? Do you have the space to store the 1x12 before the ripping, the 1x3 after?
6. Is your shop equipped with a surface planer or can you live with one or both edges of the boards having a rough surface?
7. Does your set design require a variety of widths or almost all of one dimension? A set with many windows, alcoves, odd sizes to break for touring, etc. may make custom ripping practical and more economical. A set where every piece is built of a standard 1x3 or 1x4, maybe buying the pre ripped to size is the right answer.
Compare all these variables (and any others that I have failed to remember) to find out if ripping your own is more cost effective for your shop or for a specific set.
Michael Powers, Project Manager, ETCP Certified Rigger-Theatre
Central Lighting & Equipment Inc., Des Moines, Iowa, Central Lighting & Equipment
Buying 1x12 and ripping your own stock is not a new idea, I first did this in 1963 and I learned it from the "old" guy who was TD then. Whether or not it is more economical depends on many factors.
1. What is the cost and quality of the 1x12 you can get? Good quality 1x12 will produce good quality ripped stock. Medium quality stock will produce twisted, cupped, bowed or curved ripped stock. Is the cost of the ripped stock in your area significantly higher per board foot than the 1x12?
2. How is your shop equipped in terms of a good table saw? 10" and 1 1/2 HP at least, 12" and 2 or more HP is better.
3. What is your labor situation? Union hands, skilled but paid by the hour? Students who are less skilled but paid minimum or free. Community Theatre volunteers, maybe highly skilled, maybe all thumbs, rarely paid. Skilled workers can turn out a large amount of accurately ripped boards quickly, but you have to figure the cost of their labor in with the cost of the lumber.
4. What is your time situation? Can you afford to have your crew or a couple of them, spend the time to do the ripping?
5. What is your storage/material handling situation? Do you tend to buy your lumber as you need it, or do you buy a show or season at a time? Do you have the space to store the 1x12 before the ripping, the 1x3 after?
6. Is your shop equipped with a surface planer or can you live with one or both edges of the boards having a rough surface?
7. Does your set design require a variety of widths or almost all of one dimension? A set with many windows, alcoves, odd sizes to break for touring, etc. may make custom ripping practical and more economical. A set where every piece is built of a standard 1x3 or 1x4, maybe buying the pre ripped to size is the right answer.
Compare all these variables (and any others that I have failed to remember) to find out if ripping your own is more cost effective for your shop or for a specific set.
Michael Powers, Project Manager, ETCP Certified Rigger-Theatre
Central Lighting & Equipment Inc., Des Moines, Iowa, Central Lighting & Equipment
Sayen
Active Member
My only other thought - the place where I have to buy lumber has garbage for 1x4 and 1x2. I don't know if they're just not cut well or left sitting out in the sun, or what, but they're warped and knotty as all get up. It's not always cheaper, but I get much nicer results when I rip down to those sizes. If you can do it all at once and set up a larger jig for your saw, it's a piece of cake.
I prefer the "rip it to size" option. I have found, over the years that the wider cuts of lumber tend to have straighter cores and thus I haven't had much issue with warpage, It does happen though. I Prefer to cut my stuff down to 2 3/4" so I wind up with 3 inch thick flats in the end.
Another advantage to the rip-to-size method is that you can vary widths and sections as needed--for instance, if you use off-the-shelf 1x4 and have to build a hollywood flat with an angled edge, you have to either buy a piece of 1x6 to rip to the proper (parallelogram) section, or rip one edge of a piece of 1x4 to the appropriate angle and live with the fact that the rear edge won't be in the same plane as the rest of the framing. If you're skinning both sides, the latter isn't really an option.
And when building casings and other millwork from varied dimensions, you can easily machine exactly what you need with much better yield (board-feet purchased v. board-feet used) from 1x12 than from smaller sections.
And when building casings and other millwork from varied dimensions, you can easily machine exactly what you need with much better yield (board-feet purchased v. board-feet used) from 1x12 than from smaller sections.
I'm of the rip to fit camp where possible, unless for a small project where I would normally buy premium grade lumber or plan to spend a lot of time in picking the lumber for the projet. This if not hit up the scrap/pre-cut $0.49 bin where on a good day I can often find shorter but decent enough lumber to cut down in what I need.
As with the above about warpage etc. being more common for smaller #2 lumber you also have to have a trained eye and pick it really well for any common construction grade lumber you buy. Not something you can just order up and have delivered unless you over buy by like 50% and than also have to work also around much of it in having to cut or not use in places the pre-cut lumber. What a big structual destroying knot on the board you get or a warped board in general with a 1x4? Hocky anyone? Pre-cut lumber in getting it to the size you need will have a lot of scrap to work around if even non-useful boards. I would rather a big straight board than a hocky stick that's mostly useless. Especially if not picking the lumber yourself, wider lumber for common grade just seems to be less cupped, warped etc. thus cutting what size you need if. This even if some parts of the larger boards might have to be cut around say for large knots Graned, larger lumber does take if not a lot of room, at least really efficient storage of it. Lumber quality has gone down a bit over the years. Also good storage or it's going to warp worse. Like 12" of unsupported board if you want it to stay straight in sorage & lumber or weighting of it is a good thing in training the boards.
As for scrap or not useful concepts in ripping lumber, who says you have to have a 1x4 for a toggle? Wouldn't a 1x3 sufficie in using off size?
On the other hand, do pay attention to your keystone and corner blocks in grain direction perpendicular to the seam for the keystone and at least for the corner block if not the corner block as better run diagional to the seam. Can never have enough 1/4" scrap plywood in stock - save all your scrap and cut it into them for pre-cut when at all possible. Something hard board or foam won't do properly in keeping luan or 1/4" plywood in use on other things perhaps still in concept to use for it's scrap or salvaged materials use such as on soft flats.
Had colleted up about 24" worth of 1/4" plywood scraps as pre-cut corner blocks at one point. This ranged from oak to luan in grade and even some 1/2" stuff that was even MDO.
This following a practice of mine when running a zero budget store front theater, I constantly made all scrap 1/4" ish. plywood into pre-cuts if at least 8" in size. Anyway, this tour needed me to fabricate than cut for shipping container size some aluminum 6" I-Beams with dual fluorescent lamps running the length of each. It's a concept, so I needed to be able to work on each in groups of say ten at a time. First to un-wire and remove for cutting, next to re-wire. Needed to knock out ten soft flat style saw horses in a weekend so as to support such things. Later the saw horses would be useful for the paint shop in also needing them. Fold up flat saw horse made out of five hinges, 1x4 and twelve corner blocks each. That stack of corner blocks I went thru really quickly and had to make more. As opposed to the last genertion of corner block with 12" ones that got in the way of stepping between the legs and got damaged, this time I stuck with 8" corner blocks but also double reinforced on each side at the bottom. Also found I didn't need as many Tee nuts. Anyway, one can never have enough scrap lumber keystone and corner blocks pre-cut and in storage for use. This especially if you can afford a bit more wasted matrial in making good diaginal to the seam corner blocks. Corner blocks are really really useful to pre-make. A down time type of thing perhaps and always useful.
I think most shops that would rip their lumber are buying entire bunks of it at a time and of a decent grade if not even poplar. It's cheaper in bulk so perhaps if you can't use or store an entire load of lumber, you can get together with other theaters in your area and buy it for all of you at once in saving money. A real lumber yard will often also have better lumber in bulk for a good price. Worked at the service desk for both Builder's Square and later Hines Lumber while in college, Hines had better lumber in general and more ability to make a deal if not in a smaller corporate structure approve tax deductable doations or donations in exchange for placement of add in the program. At very least mis-matched paint and other say discontinued or returned items at times - though either store might be on the manager level approval for such things.
Used to work At Chicago Scenic Studios, they were using poplar mostly back than as I remember. Later worked at Scenic View Chicago - they used poplar also but poplar plywood for just about everything. Talk about having to rip stuff down, we ripped down 3/4" poplar sheets for almost everything we built. Made me while working there wish for real lumber rather than having to spend hours ripping down heavy 3/4" sheets of plywood to board sizes. Their opinion of course was that to the extent needed in strength, the plywood was sufficiet and all of the sheet was good to use for what ever size was needed in neither having warps etc. or knots to work around. Valid point but pain in the rear to have to rip than splice as needed if one needs a longer section.
Final thought, avoid "Super Strips." Used to have rounded edges, don't think they do any more but I'm sure they are still out there as per a ferring strip. Used to go up to a 1x4 in size and were much cheaper than construction grade #2 common lumber. Problem was they often were not kilm dried as extensively and what might on buying seem straight and not have any sap bleeding out of them, but once the lumber did so, it warped like crazy especially in the smaller sizes. This even after installed on the scenery. Moisture sensors are not common but rather a really dry board than one that's too fresh in warping later. You pay for what you get - cheap in lumber ain't always better.
Side note, I love Menards Random Length/size Oak lumber bin. Just wish it were better organized and in other than a dark cove of the hardwood lumber racks. Really have to dig thru to find a deal but you can find say a roughly - really roughly 1x6x8 for the price of a pre-cut and packaged 1x4x4 oak. Just have to dig around in the vertical rack that has 8' and longer boards normally of wide sizes in it to find what you are looking for. Takes time to find a good deal or board looking for. A bit less finished in size and cut, wish I had a planer, but a good sanding and table saw in cutting to size is normally sufficient for use of it at a discount even if it means more scrap and time. Also love their White Aspin. Fairly cheap and stains well as per good quality fir or poplar. Made hall tree with it as the center a few years ago, can't tell which is the fir or pine and which is the white aspin. Routered and cut well in the making.
As with the above about warpage etc. being more common for smaller #2 lumber you also have to have a trained eye and pick it really well for any common construction grade lumber you buy. Not something you can just order up and have delivered unless you over buy by like 50% and than also have to work also around much of it in having to cut or not use in places the pre-cut lumber. What a big structual destroying knot on the board you get or a warped board in general with a 1x4? Hocky anyone? Pre-cut lumber in getting it to the size you need will have a lot of scrap to work around if even non-useful boards. I would rather a big straight board than a hocky stick that's mostly useless. Especially if not picking the lumber yourself, wider lumber for common grade just seems to be less cupped, warped etc. thus cutting what size you need if. This even if some parts of the larger boards might have to be cut around say for large knots Graned, larger lumber does take if not a lot of room, at least really efficient storage of it. Lumber quality has gone down a bit over the years. Also good storage or it's going to warp worse. Like 12" of unsupported board if you want it to stay straight in sorage & lumber or weighting of it is a good thing in training the boards.
As for scrap or not useful concepts in ripping lumber, who says you have to have a 1x4 for a toggle? Wouldn't a 1x3 sufficie in using off size?
On the other hand, do pay attention to your keystone and corner blocks in grain direction perpendicular to the seam for the keystone and at least for the corner block if not the corner block as better run diagional to the seam. Can never have enough 1/4" scrap plywood in stock - save all your scrap and cut it into them for pre-cut when at all possible. Something hard board or foam won't do properly in keeping luan or 1/4" plywood in use on other things perhaps still in concept to use for it's scrap or salvaged materials use such as on soft flats.
Had colleted up about 24" worth of 1/4" plywood scraps as pre-cut corner blocks at one point. This ranged from oak to luan in grade and even some 1/2" stuff that was even MDO.
This following a practice of mine when running a zero budget store front theater, I constantly made all scrap 1/4" ish. plywood into pre-cuts if at least 8" in size. Anyway, this tour needed me to fabricate than cut for shipping container size some aluminum 6" I-Beams with dual fluorescent lamps running the length of each. It's a concept, so I needed to be able to work on each in groups of say ten at a time. First to un-wire and remove for cutting, next to re-wire. Needed to knock out ten soft flat style saw horses in a weekend so as to support such things. Later the saw horses would be useful for the paint shop in also needing them. Fold up flat saw horse made out of five hinges, 1x4 and twelve corner blocks each. That stack of corner blocks I went thru really quickly and had to make more. As opposed to the last genertion of corner block with 12" ones that got in the way of stepping between the legs and got damaged, this time I stuck with 8" corner blocks but also double reinforced on each side at the bottom. Also found I didn't need as many Tee nuts. Anyway, one can never have enough scrap lumber keystone and corner blocks pre-cut and in storage for use. This especially if you can afford a bit more wasted matrial in making good diaginal to the seam corner blocks. Corner blocks are really really useful to pre-make. A down time type of thing perhaps and always useful.
I think most shops that would rip their lumber are buying entire bunks of it at a time and of a decent grade if not even poplar. It's cheaper in bulk so perhaps if you can't use or store an entire load of lumber, you can get together with other theaters in your area and buy it for all of you at once in saving money. A real lumber yard will often also have better lumber in bulk for a good price. Worked at the service desk for both Builder's Square and later Hines Lumber while in college, Hines had better lumber in general and more ability to make a deal if not in a smaller corporate structure approve tax deductable doations or donations in exchange for placement of add in the program. At very least mis-matched paint and other say discontinued or returned items at times - though either store might be on the manager level approval for such things.
Used to work At Chicago Scenic Studios, they were using poplar mostly back than as I remember. Later worked at Scenic View Chicago - they used poplar also but poplar plywood for just about everything. Talk about having to rip stuff down, we ripped down 3/4" poplar sheets for almost everything we built. Made me while working there wish for real lumber rather than having to spend hours ripping down heavy 3/4" sheets of plywood to board sizes. Their opinion of course was that to the extent needed in strength, the plywood was sufficiet and all of the sheet was good to use for what ever size was needed in neither having warps etc. or knots to work around. Valid point but pain in the rear to have to rip than splice as needed if one needs a longer section.
Final thought, avoid "Super Strips." Used to have rounded edges, don't think they do any more but I'm sure they are still out there as per a ferring strip. Used to go up to a 1x4 in size and were much cheaper than construction grade #2 common lumber. Problem was they often were not kilm dried as extensively and what might on buying seem straight and not have any sap bleeding out of them, but once the lumber did so, it warped like crazy especially in the smaller sizes. This even after installed on the scenery. Moisture sensors are not common but rather a really dry board than one that's too fresh in warping later. You pay for what you get - cheap in lumber ain't always better.
Side note, I love Menards Random Length/size Oak lumber bin. Just wish it were better organized and in other than a dark cove of the hardwood lumber racks. Really have to dig thru to find a deal but you can find say a roughly - really roughly 1x6x8 for the price of a pre-cut and packaged 1x4x4 oak. Just have to dig around in the vertical rack that has 8' and longer boards normally of wide sizes in it to find what you are looking for. Takes time to find a good deal or board looking for. A bit less finished in size and cut, wish I had a planer, but a good sanding and table saw in cutting to size is normally sufficient for use of it at a discount even if it means more scrap and time. Also love their White Aspin. Fairly cheap and stains well as per good quality fir or poplar. Made hall tree with it as the center a few years ago, can't tell which is the fir or pine and which is the white aspin. Routered and cut well in the making.
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